Are we at least....

[kingjulian]

...in the top 10 list of clubs that players would like to play for??

Frankly, i'm growing tired of people suggesting that we shouldn't be linked to the top players, and prem-proven average joe's who have never set the world alight at inflated prices and wages is the order of the day. What is the end-purpose of these purchase...the lofty ambition of getting 4th place? Why are we paying inflated prices for these "can do a job" kind of players...to make ourselves feel good? We may as well not spend. Wenger has managed to hang on to 4th place just fine, without having to buy these prem proven players every season.

We used to criticize Rafa's regime for purchasing a end-less list of players 7 million pound players. How is buying a similar caliber of players at 20+ million a better strategy? I'm sure, if we trawled through this site, we would unearth some pretty vocal supporters for Pennant at 7 million over whathizface at Barca now (Remember when we were European Champions??). They were not right then, they are not right now.

I'm wondering, if we are even in the top 10 attractive clubs to play for....there are only so many players the rest of the clubs in the top 10 could purchase, and all the other players have to still choose a path/destiny and we will look an attractive proposition for them?

How far down the ladder have we fallen?

Is it such a crime to hope for the odd Suarez even at this stage. The 20 million pounds Downings of the football world fill me with dread.....there i said it.

This is the "say no to Downing" campaign...everybody, please sign up. Have some faith! His blardy name is so depressing.


Caveat: If we do actually sign him, i'll tuck my tail in and get behind the lad. Till the time this is actually confirmed (similar to when everybody and their dog knew we were appointing Roy Hodgson, but the Judge and few others were still desperately hoping it weren't true), i'm going to be as vocal against it as i can be.

 

[Modo]

Haha good post.

Btw I'd say that we're probably sharing 10th with Juve.

England:
Arsenal
Man U
Man City
Chelsea

Italy:
Milan
Juventus
Inter

Germany:
Bayern munchen

Spain:
Barcelona
Madrid

 

[Holle]

There's no objective Top 10.

It depends on the goals, interests etc. of every single player.

No die-hard manc or blue for example would ever consider coming to us.

On the other hand there's players that would love coming to us and therefore would also snub 'bigger' clubs.

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Holle link=topic=45965.msg1359284#msg1359284 date=1309762117]
There's no objective Top 10.

It depends on the goals, interests etc. of every single player.

No die-hard manc or blue for example would ever consider coming to us.

On the other hand there's players that would love coming to us and therefore would also snub 'bigger' clubs.
[/quote]

Let's say to a neutral professional who is plying his trade in the continent.....like Mata for example. I doub't he is a die-hard blue, manc or Red....if he said he was, he is lying, like Torres.

 

[Frogfish]

Agree with that list Modo but we are not sharing 10th but definitely 11th. Portugal (Benfica / Porto) may also be a big pull to some young SA players.

United & Citeh for the glory and the money. Arsenal and Chelsea (and arguably Spurs) amongst other attractions they are in London, that's a big pull for certain players (and/or their spouses) who don't want to be in the North of England.

Barca & Real - the end destination for 95% of Latin country origin players. Maybe even Atletico and Sevilla are more attractive to some wanting to stay close to their roots and put themselves in the Barca/Real shop window. More attractive lifestyle.

Bayern - money, glory and almost certain CL football.

Inter / AC / Juve : money, glory, CL football (well except Juve this year) and Italy is more like home for many Spanish / South American players. More attractive lifestyle. Roma - more attractive to some wanting to stay close to their roots and put themselves in the top Italian / Spanish shop window.

The lack of CL football (even though for 95% of teams it means virtually nothing since they get knocked out early on) is a major negative for many top players and their aspirations (or should that be agents). It won't take much to put us back in the Top 10 as a very desirable destination for top players; if we have a good season, make Top 4, do well in the cups, and look as if we can challenge (maybe even win it this coming season eh ! ) for the PL title then put us back in the Top 8.

 

[kingjulian]

By the way....i think a pro who wants to go to Italy, wants his head examined.

The league is clearly weaker and match day attendance and tv-viewers/sponsors are dwindling, corruption is all over the place like a rash. It won't be long before they slip behind Bundesliga - financially, if they are not already there.

So if somebody wants to choose good weather, over all the football reasons, we are clearly dodging a bullet?

 

[Holle]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=45965.msg1359286#msg1359286 date=1309762383]
[quote author=Holle link=topic=45965.msg1359284#msg1359284 date=1309762117]
There's no objective Top 10.

It depends on the goals, interests etc. of every single player.

No die-hard manc or blue for example would ever consider coming to us.

On the other hand there's players that would love coming to us and therefore would also snub 'bigger' clubs.
[/quote]

Let's say to a neutral professional who is plying his trade in the continent.....like Mata for example. I doub't he is a die-hard blue, manc or Red....if he said he was, he is lying, like Torres.
[/quote]

Like I said, it depends.

For some players it's only important how much they earn. Others only want to live in mediterranean climates. Others want to learn new languages, see new countries, others don't. One player only wants few rivals on his preferred position the other one doesn't care.

You can't make a list based only on club names.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=Holle link=topic=45965.msg1359291#msg1359291 date=1309762973]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=45965.msg1359286#msg1359286 date=1309762383]
[quote author=Holle link=topic=45965.msg1359284#msg1359284 date=1309762117]
There's no objective Top 10.

It depends on the goals, interests etc. of every single player.

No die-hard manc or blue for example would ever consider coming to us.

On the other hand there's players that would love coming to us and therefore would also snub 'bigger' clubs.
[/quote]

Let's say to a neutral professional who is plying his trade in the continent.....like Mata for example. I doub't he is a die-hard blue, manc or Red....if he said he was, he is lying, like Torres.
[/quote]

Like I said, it depends.

For some players it's only important how much they earn. Others only want to live in mediterranean climates. Others want to learn new languages, see new countries, others don't. One player only wants few rivals on his preferred position the other one doesn't care.

You can't make a list based only on club names.
[/quote]

Only to a certain extent. 90% of top players are going to want a top club & CL football - see list above.

 

[Fabio]

DOWNING FTMFW

 

[Holle]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=45965.msg1359294#msg1359294 date=1309763367]

Only to a certain extent. 90% of top players are going to want a top club & CL football - see list above.
[/quote]

90% is a pretty high figure.

While I don't necessarily disagree (a lot of players will be wanting top flight football, no doubt) there's always mercenaries who only travel for cash (see Citeh for example,they didn't have CL footy but still signed players for the top drawer) or sentimental players who rather stay at their clubs regardless where or how they play (Le Tissier, Del Piero, etc.).

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Holle link=topic=45965.msg1359298#msg1359298 date=1309763891]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=45965.msg1359294#msg1359294 date=1309763367]

Only to a certain extent. 90% of top players are going to want a top club & CL football - see list above.
[/quote]

90% is a pretty high figure.

While I don't necessarily disagree (a lot of players will be wanting top flight football, no doubt) there's always mercenaries who only travel for cash (see Citeh for example,they didn't have CL footy but still signed players for the top drawer) or sentimental players who rather stay at their clubs regardless where or how they play (Le Tissier, Del Piero, etc.).[/quote]

City kind of cash would tempt almost anybody mate. There is a reason there is only one or two clubs like that. They don't play by the rules that apply to normal clubs. But there are simply too many fish in the ocean to be overly bothered. The point i want to make is that, even assuming all these clubs are above us in the pecking order, we have still got the clout to get the good players.

We first have to put our hand and say we want them though. If we just assume and settle for Downing, it's not going to happen.

 

[Richey]

Well with respect kj are you not the one who is assuming?

For all we know we might have already asked about these other players and found them either too expensive or not interested.

Our aim is to get into the top 4. Trying to get the better players from English clubs that are not in the top four does not seem to be the worst of strategies, given that it is likely those players have played well in the premiership, will be keen to progress and keen to play for us.

What are the other options? Probably looking to similar players at clubs in similar positions abroad. Suarez gets named a lot in these kind of threads, but how much success has he had in his career? He is been great for us so far but that could easily have gone the other way, just as Downing might really raise his game if he signs for us.

 

[Holle]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=45965.msg1359300#msg1359300 date=1309764398]
[quote author=Holle link=topic=45965.msg1359298#msg1359298 date=1309763891]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=45965.msg1359294#msg1359294 date=1309763367]

Only to a certain extent. 90% of top players are going to want a top club & CL football - see list above.
[/quote]

90% is a pretty high figure.

While I don't necessarily disagree (a lot of players will be wanting top flight football, no doubt) there's always mercenaries who only travel for cash (see Citeh for example,they didn't have CL footy but still signed players for the top drawer) or sentimental players who rather stay at their clubs regardless where or how they play (Le Tissier, Del Piero, etc.).[/quote]

City kind of cash would tempt almost anybody mate. There is a reason there is only one or two clubs like that. They don't play by the rules that apply to normal clubs. But there are simply too many fish in the ocean to be overly bothered. The point i want to make is that, even assuming all these clubs are above us in the pecking order, we have still got the clout to get the good players.

We first have to put our hand and say we want them though. If we just assume and settle for Downing, it's not going to happen.
[/quote]

I understand, mate.

I think we still have it. We still have a great history which will appeal to many players. We still have great supporters. We still are a top drawer club.

The only thing we can't provide at the moment is instant success.

The point I tried to make is that there are players out there for which instant trophies or cash isn't everything. These are the players we need to get back where we belong. Passionate players not glory hunters or mercenaries.

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=45965.msg1359306#msg1359306 date=1309765566]
Well with respect kj are you not the one who is assuming?

For all we know we might have already asked about these other players and found them either too expensive or not interested.

Our aim is to get into the top 4. Trying to get the better players from English clubs that are not in the top four does not seem to be the worst of strategies, given that it is likely those players have played well in the premiership, will be keen to progress and keen to play for us.

What are the other options? Probably looking to similar players at clubs in similar positions abroad. Suarez gets named a lot in these kind of threads, but how much success has he had in his career? He is been great for us so far but that could easily have gone the other way, just as Downing might really raise his game if he signs for us.
[/quote]

So we are taking 20 million pound to buy something nice, and because it's not available you are saying we should spunk most of that on some junk? Whatever happened to looking out for the next best?

I refuse to believe the likes of Downing is the next best available option. Even, if they are, we shouldn't be paying that much money...no way.

Martin Petrov's career hasn't been so different from that of Downing's. In fact he had more to him than downing, City managed to buy him at 5 million 4 years back. So even in dire conditions, we can get better value for money signing than Downing. In fact, i think, Petrov at 32, is still the better player compared to Downing. Why do we insist on paying a premium for a player, when there certainly is a chance for a bargain on the same level of player?

We managed to buy Raul Meireles last season when our financial future is quite a bit up in the air, and there was a very real chance we were going to bankrupt.

If we are chasing after Downing and wasting our time, then it would mean that we have learnt nothing from the Barry saga. He is the kind of player for whom, we should make an offer and move on. There is no reason to budge. We should be quick to accept defeat on these negotiations than the ones where the players are saying "Barca and Real are also making an offer, can you match that types..."

It's one thing to accept that the other clubs in the top-ten are likely to bully us, it is another to let Aston Villa repeatedly bum-rape us.

 

[keniget]

How does a player like Modric fit into things?

He was being chased by a number of top CL clubs in Europe and he opted to go to Spurs. They aren't particularly prestigious, they don't pay outrageous wages and they weren't in the CL and hadn't been forever.

Why did he move there?

 

[Richey]

You are making assumptions again. This time about what has happened in our negotiations with other clubs.

I don't agree that Downing anywhere near as shit as you are making out. He's an international player who has played at the top level for years now.

If you want someone more glamorous then fine, say so but no need to make Downing out to be the worst player in the World and no need to paint a picture - based on nothing - that we are being held to ransom by Villa and should pull out on principle.

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=45965.msg1359332#msg1359332 date=1309769469]

I don't agree that Downing anywhere near as shit as you are making out. He's an international player who has played at the top level for years now.

[/quote]

I haven't called him Shit.

I have compared him to Martin Petrov. You have compared him to a potential Suarez. I think i'm more right than you are.

The crux of my grudge is that he does not represent value for money. If we have 20 million pound burning a hole in our pocket, we can't change target from Mata to Downing and for a similar price level to rub it in. It doesn't make sense. I haven't made any assumptions about who we have spoken to or am i placing the blame on the club as the transfer window is obviously openand none of this is confirmed. I'm talking about those who seem to suggest targeting the likes of Downing is the right strategy (I haven't made any assumptions here, have I?) I think they are wrong, using our diminishing reputations as some sort of justification for it doesn't make much sense either.

 

[Richey]

We don't know though if Mata is available at a similar price or whether his wages are at a similar level.

We don't even know for sure how much we will have to pay to get Downing. But even if we do, the questions should be will he improve the side, would we have been able to get someone cheaper who would have been able to improve the side to the same extent and should we have bought a cheaper winger than Downing and put the cash difference towards improving another position.

IF we sign him, the first question there can't truly be answered until the season is underway and the other 2 questions are pretty much impossible to answer fully unless we are privy to all the club's financial information as well as all negotiations and enquiries with other clubs.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=45965.msg1359329#msg1359329 date=1309769257]
How does a player like Modric fit into things?

He was being chased by a number of top CL clubs in Europe and he opted to go to Spurs. They aren't particularly prestigious, they don't pay outrageous wages and they weren't in the CL and hadn't been forever.

Why did he move there?
[/quote]

Could it be that the other clubs rumoured to be involved, were in fact not involved and Spurs were his best option ? That really seems a likely scenario to me, although I hasten to add I don't really know and am just hazarding a guess.

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=45965.msg1359347#msg1359347 date=1309772426]
We don't know though if Mata is available at a similar price or whether his wages are at a similar level.

We don't even know for sure how much we will have to pay to get Downing. But even if we do, the questions should be will he improve the side, would we have been able to get someone cheaper who would have been able to improve the side to the same extent and should we have bought a cheaper winger than Downing and put the cash difference towards improving another position.

IF we sign him, the first question there can't truly be answered until the season is underway and the other 2 questions are pretty much impossible to answer fully unless we are privy to all the club's financial information as well as all negotiations and enquiries with other clubs.
[/quote]

So you suggest we don't argue anything and just wait and see? No body ever knows these things.

Ok...works for me. Captain googlebird signing out....

 

[Fabio]

Wait captain googlebird!





WAAAAAAAAAAAAAIT

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=45965.msg1359348#msg1359348 date=1309772491]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=45965.msg1359329#msg1359329 date=1309769257]
How does a player like Modric fit into things?

He was being chased by a number of top CL clubs in Europe and he opted to go to Spurs. They aren't particularly prestigious, they don't pay outrageous wages and they weren't in the CL and hadn't been forever.

Why did he move there?
[/quote]

Could it be that the other clubs rumoured to be involved, were in fact not involved and Spurs were his best option ? That really seems a likely scenario to me, although I hasten to add I don't really know and am just hazarding a guess.
[/quote]

Quite possibly.

Although clubs are always rumoured to be in for players it often turns out that they don't make an offer, or their offer isn't good enough, or that they were not really interested at all.

Maybe Modric really did not have any other options, or maybe he did have a couple of others but they were not that appealing and he wanted to play in England?

 

[Cerberus]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=45965.msg1359329#msg1359329 date=1309769257]
How does a player like Modric fit into things?

He was being chased by a number of top CL clubs in Europe and he opted to go to Spurs. They aren't particularly prestigious, they don't pay outrageous wages and they weren't in the CL and hadn't been forever.

Why did he move there?
[/quote]


As far as I can recall he wasn't being chased at all. His agent was whoring him around europe and the big clubs probably weren't interested because he was still a relative unknown quantity. Spurs took the gamble and it paid off. I actually remember some people advocating his signing on here but the majority felt he wasn't good enough, was too lightweight, or actually hadn't got a clue and just decided that he was "shite".

 

[keniget]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=45965.msg1359348#msg1359348 date=1309772491]
Could it be that the other clubs rumoured to be involved, were in fact not involved and Spurs were his best option ? That really seems a likely scenario to me, although I hasten to add I don't really know and am just hazarding a guess.
[/quote]

That is entirely possible. It just seemed at the time that he was very much the wanted man and his signing represented quite a coup for Spurs.

Either way, I think that Modric along with Suarez represent two fantastic examples of players with reputations being picked up at the right time by clubs who don't quite have as much to work with as others.

The only problem is that they don't come around very often. I wonder if there are any knocking about this summer.

 

[Frogfish]

KJ - I don't think you can start talking about looking about for 'bargain' players. That's been part of our problem over the last few years. I still can't believe Alves slipped through our fingers for want of another 2M. Nobody knew if Petrov was going to be a success or not and more than likely if you buy 3 or 4 of those type players maybe only one will be a success. At least with recognised players you basically know what you are getting and if it doesn't work out there will be someone to take them off our hands for a decent price.

I also think this is why we are in for more British based players. We know what we're getting, it's highly unlikely they'll turn out to be shite for us when doing well elsewhere in the PL. Whereas whenever we seem to buy an overseas player of late they sooner or later start declaring their love for, and lifelong ambition to play for, Barca or Real. Whereas British players signing for us probably think of this as their big chance to play for one of the greatest teams in the world and have grown up with our team's image big in their lives. Downing falls into that bracket for me. We know what we're getting (a proven, very competent and reliable winger who will give his all - as his stats prove) and we could certainly do a lot worse, if Downing it is to be then I'm certain he'll make a big improvement to the team as a whole.

 

[Fabio]

I think spurs got modric the same way we got suarez. Watched by a few top teams, yet us and spurs were the only ones who actually bid.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=45965.msg1359350#msg1359350 date=1309772696]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=45965.msg1359347#msg1359347 date=1309772426]
We don't know though if Mata is available at a similar price or whether his wages are at a similar level.

We don't even know for sure how much we will have to pay to get Downing. But even if we do, the questions should be will he improve the side, would we have been able to get someone cheaper who would have been able to improve the side to the same extent and should we have bought a cheaper winger than Downing and put the cash difference towards improving another position.

IF we sign him, the first question there can't truly be answered until the season is underway and the other 2 questions are pretty much impossible to answer fully unless we are privy to all the club's financial information as well as all negotiations and enquiries with other clubs.
[/quote]

So you suggest we don't argue anything and just wait and see? No body ever knows these things.

Ok...works for me. Captain googlebird signing out....
[/quote]

Arguing things is fine of course, but the summer transfer window is hardly the best time for reliable information is it? Especially this season when it has been well documented that we are playing our cards extremely close to our chests.

No point getting stressed over things that may or may not happen or options that may or may not exist is there?

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=45965.msg1359354#msg1359354 date=1309772993]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=45965.msg1359348#msg1359348 date=1309772491]
Could it be that the other clubs rumoured to be involved, were in fact not involved and Spurs were his best option ? That really seems a likely scenario to me, although I hasten to add I don't really know and am just hazarding a guess.
[/quote]

That is entirely possible. It just seemed at the time that he was very much the wanted man and his signing represented quite a coup for Spurs.

Either way, I think that Modric along with Suarez represent two fantastic examples of players with reputations being picked up at the right time by clubs who don't quite have as much to work with as others.

The only problem is that they don't come around very often. I wonder if there are any knocking about this summer.
[/quote]

Undoubtedly there are. But recognising them at this stage of their careers is difficult and splashing out on them a dicey prospect. For me Suarez was less of a gamble and TBH I can hardly believe that one of the Spanish teams didn't come in for him. He had looked great before the WC, he looked the dog's bollocks at the WC, and anyone who watched him often enough (I did - though admittedly most were highlights from the Erdedivisie) were proponents of signing him.

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=45965.msg1359351#msg1359351 date=1309772833]
Wait captain googlebird!





WAAAAAAAAAAAAAIT
[/quote]

*signs back in*

roger that lieutenant.

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=45965.msg1359355#msg1359355 date=1309773093]
KJ - I don't think you can start talking about looking about for 'bargain' players. That's been part of our problem over the last few years. I still can't believe Alves slipped through our fingers for want of another 2M. Nobody knew if Petrov was going to be a success or not and more than likely if you buy 3 or 4 of those type players maybe only one will be a success. At least with recognised players you basically know what you are getting and if it doesn't work out there will be someone to take them off our hands for a decent price.

I also think this is why we are in for more British based players. We know what we're getting, it's highly unlikely they'll turn out to be shite for us when doing well elsewhere in the PL. Whereas whenever we seem to buy an overseas player of late they sooner or later start declaring their love for, and lifelong ambition to play for, Barca or Real. Whereas British players signing for us probably think of this as their big chance to play for one of the greatest teams in the world and have grown up with our team's image big in their lives. Downing falls into that bracket for me. We know what we're getting (a proven, very competent and reliable winger who will give his all - as his stats prove) and we could certainly do a lot worse, if Downing it is to be then I'm certain he'll make a big improvement to the team as a whole.
[/quote]

I just hope that there is an up-side to the premium we are paying for "Premiership experienced but Proven Average", as opposed to "Continental Hopefuls but could turn out dire". None of these players are gonna make us challenge for sure.

The transfer window is long, and it hasn't even opened yet - i hear (i have no idea about these things)....lets hope for better news. I don't want the Downing for sure. I see no upside to spending a shit load of money on that lad.

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=45965.msg1359357#msg1359357 date=1309773152]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=45965.msg1359350#msg1359350 date=1309772696]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=45965.msg1359347#msg1359347 date=1309772426]
We don't know though if Mata is available at a similar price or whether his wages are at a similar level.

We don't even know for sure how much we will have to pay to get Downing. But even if we do, the questions should be will he improve the side, would we have been able to get someone cheaper who would have been able to improve the side to the same extent and should we have bought a cheaper winger than Downing and put the cash difference towards improving another position.

IF we sign him, the first question there can't truly be answered until the season is underway and the other 2 questions are pretty much impossible to answer fully unless we are privy to all the club's financial information as well as all negotiations and enquiries with other clubs.
[/quote]

So you suggest we don't argue anything and just wait and see? No body ever knows these things.

Ok...works for me. Captain googlebird signing out....
[/quote]

Arguing things is fine of course, but the summer transfer window is hardly the best time for reliable information is it? Especially this season when it has been well documented that we are playing our cards extremely close to our chests.

No point getting stressed over things that may or may not happen or options that may or may not exist is there?
[/quote]

I didn't really want to talk about a specific player or a specific link. I let my hatred for Downing come through a little too much...yes, but the point i was trying to argue was....eh never mind...as you said, it's not worth getting a warning message from boss asking me to focus.