Brentford (A), Monday 2nd of January

[Best Believe It]

Again, I dont think Mo and Virgil are the issue. They suffer when the rest of the team is dysfunctional, as do all our top players.
The lack of midfield is hurting Mo attacking wise and makes our defense look much worse than it actually is, imho.

Mo and Virgil are issues though. Virg clearly isn't the same since the injury and we don't have the whole saving himself for the World Cup excuse anymore. Mo's form might be affected by the baffling tactical changes we've installed this season; making him hug the touchline to start off with, having a midfield that doesn't press etc, having a RCM who often takes up the same space as him in the final third.

That's why it's difficult to find solutions because so many things are going wrong. I do generally follow Woland's school of thought, that the squad is suffering generally from a lack of structured investment over the last four years. We should have shipped Ox and Keita out already when it became clear injuries had robbed them of the potential of becoming part of a settled midfield, for a start.

 

[MomoWASright]

The problem now is that's massive surgery when it should have been a series of incremental interventions. If we sell everyone whose playing shit we don't have anyone left. It should have been three in three out for the past four seasons, that's what works for teams that keep winning stuff. Now we've backed ourselves into this stupid place for no good reason, and the only explanation is that Klopp didn't have this problem at Dortmund because Bayern bought all his best players off him once a year, so knowing when to offload players at the downward curve of their peak is a skill he never learned.

Which we’ve been saying for years. Sell once you know you’re getting diminishing returns. Now we’re in this corner what can we sell to help with the refresh? They’re probably two of the biggest assets (alongside Trent) we have and neither will fetch the dough we would’ve got last year.

 

[Hansern]

Mo and Virgil are issues though. Virg clearly isn't the same since the injury and we don't have the whole saving himself for the World Cup excuse anymore. Mo's form might be affected by the baffling tactical changes we've installed this season; making him hug the touchline to start off with, having a midfield that doesn't press etc, having a RCM who often takes up the same space as him in the final third.

That's why it's difficult to find solutions because so many things are going wrong. I do generally follow Woland's school of thought, that the squad is suffering generally from a lack of structured investment over the last four years. We should have shipped Ox and Keita out already when it became clear injuries had robbed them of the potential of becoming part of a settled midfield, for a start.

I agree with the last part, and the fact that we have signed only Thiago in the last 3-4 years to freshen up the midfield is negligance of the highest order.

Dont agree about the first part. I dont think they are part of the problem. Our pressing game and midfield is non exsistent and that affects us both attacking wise and for our defenders.
Virgil and Salah are still among the best in the World in their positions but we have made their working environment so much harder.

 

[Best Believe It]

I agree with the last part, and the fact that we have signed only Thiago in the last 3-4 years to freshen up the midfield is negligance of the highest order.

Dont agree about the first part. I dont think they are part of the problem. Our pressing game and midfield is non exsistent and that affects us both attacking wise and for our defenders.
Virgil and Salah are still among the best in the World in their positions but we have made their working environment so much harder.

I guess what I was trying to say is that they've made the issues with the ageing midfield more complicated. Virgil's form has been of concern (relative to his previous form), as has Salah's. It's not just them - Trent, Robbo and Fabinho have been patchy at best. It's difficult then to say if this is just symptomatic of a draining season in 21/22, or the start of a decline etc. As much as fixing the midfield - which we have to start doing this window - will sort a large proportion of our problems out, gain control of games, manage them better, protect our defence etc; it's not going to fix everything.

 

[rurikbird]

Formation got no part to play, wouldn't change a thing.

The personnel is the problem, everybody knows this. Performances won't change until the dross and players who are years past their best are shipped out for fresh blood.

Pace in midfield
Creativity in midfield.

Fucking find some.

Long-term player quality determines almost everything, but in the short term formation and tactical shifts could be effective. Klopp tweaked the formula in October-November that suited our current personnel better and masked some of the weaknesses, but since the World Cup went back to seemingly trying to play in a maximalist way. The result has been a deserved win, an undeserved win and a deserved loss.

 

[StevieM]

The press is dysfunctional, starting with the front line - which has a knock on effect to the midfield, because if the front line are pressing they can’t effectively press either - which in in turn exposing the back line.

Personally, I think we’ve changed the way in which we press to accommodate Nunez, who’s shit at pressing, in order to feed him through-balls to exploit his pace.

Losing Mane hasn’t helped - it injuries to Jota, Diaz & Firmino along with Nunez not being good at pressing has been a bigger problem.

At the same time we’re trying to develop the midfield to be more progressive against the counter press - playing our way through it like city - but none of the midfielders has been able to get themselves into anything approaching decent form.

That progressive midfield is also supposed to be more effective against low blocks, by retaining & probing - but again, they’re all playing like a bunch of fannies.

Gakpo is shite at pressing as well, apparently - so that’s going to be fun.

At the same time, we’re missing too many good goal scoring opportunities - Nunez finishing is awful generally and Salah has started missing opportunists he’d normally stick away.

Or season relies on getting the press working, getting a few key players into a bit of consistent form and being more clinical in our finishing.

While welcome - new signings aren’t going to be the quick fix people think they are.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

I'm taking the mick mate

I’m not !!

I never could understand these mid season training camps. Waste of money and time.

 

[Hansern]

The press is dysfunctional, starting with the front line - which has a knock on effect to the midfield, because if the front line are pressing they can’t effectively press either - which in in turn exposing the back line.

Personally, I think we’ve changed the way in which we press to accommodate Nunez, who’s shit at pressing, in order to feed him through-balls to exploit his pace.

Losing Mane hasn’t helped - it injuries to Jota, Diaz & Firmino along with Nunez not being good at pressing has been a bigger problem.

At the same time we’re trying to develop the midfield to be more progressive against the counter press - playing our way through it like city - but none of the midfielders has been able to get themselves into anything approaching decent form.

That progressive midfield is also supposed to be more effective against low blocks, by retaining & probing - but again, they’re all playing like a bunch of fannies.

Gakpo is shite at pressing as well, apparently - so that’s going to be fun.

At the same time, we’re missing too many good goal scoring opportunities - Nunez finishing is awful generally and Salah has started missing opportunists he’d normally stick away.

Or season relies on getting the press working, getting a few key players into a bit of consistent form and being more clinical in our finishing.

While welcome - new signings aren’t going to be the quick fix people think they are.

Only problem with that is that Nunez actually has a very good work rate and isnt shit at pressing. I think it could more be a problem that he isnt integrated in how the team presses. But that isnt working at all in every part of the team this season in all honesty.

 

[Fabio]

I don't know if i agree with the thought that Nunez is shit at pressing

 

[Fabio]

Whole teams fucked tbh. Forwards are pressing, leaving the midfield exposed, and because they're all weak/old they're either ignored or outmuscled. Which then leaves the defence exposed.

 

[Fabio]

We need 2 units in midfield. Fabs and thiago aint it

 

[binomial]

The only thing we can do tactically is carry on playing like we did against City at home....especially away from home games where we look so vulnerable no matter who we play.

35% possession, sitting deep and compact...no one left exposed and just trying to find ways out on the counter through Nunez and Mo.

Midfield don't have it in them to press as Fabio said, we need a whole new engine room in there.

But Klopp won't ever do that because he LOATHES teams that sit deep and look for counters/set plays all the time. He hates it.

 

[mark1975]

The only thing we can do tactically is carry on playing like we did against City at home....especially away from home games where we look so vulnerable no matter who we play.

35% possession, sitting deep and compact...no one left exposed and just trying to find ways out on the counter through Nunez and Mo.

Midfield don't have it in them to press as Fabio said, we need a whole new engine room in there.

But Klopp won't ever do that because he LOATHES teams that sit deep and look for counters/set plays all the time. He hates it.

He can hate it all he wants, trying to play in a way that we don't have the tools for is doing no one any favours. He needs to plan B his way out of it and then sort his shit out in the summer. He won't though.

 

[Fabio]

He can hate it all he wants, trying to play in a way that we don't have the tools for is doing no one any favours. He needs to plan B his way out of it and then sort his shit out in the summer. He won't though.

He won't because he can't.

 

[binomial]

He can hate it all he wants, trying to play in a way that we don't have the tools for is doing no one any favours. He needs to plan B his way out of it and then sort his shit out in the summer. He won't though.

All very true and that's where I wish Klopp could be less stubborn and see whats best for the team as this current moment in time but I understand his position and his values, he doesn't want to see us become what he's loathed about for so long.

 

[MaBigTip]

But Klopp won't ever do that because he LOATHES teams that sit deep and look for counters/set plays all the time. He hates it.

I actually don't understand how he changed from the man who said

"He likes having the ball, playing football, passes. It’s like an orchestra. But it’s a silent song. I like heavy metal.”

"It is not my sport. I don’t like winning with 80% [possession]. Sorry that is not enough for me. Fighting football, not serenity football, that is what I like. What we call in German ‘English’ — rainy day, heavy pitch, 5-5, everybody is dirty in the face and goes home and cannot play for weeks after."

“We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible—you can beat better teams by using tactics."

became someone who insults a team that sets up to win even when they aren't as skilled... Its actually one of the things I worry about Klopp the most... that he became so insulting towards less skilled teams playing to their strengths.

 

[binomial]

Was that press from the first day/week he took over at Liverpool? Or how long ago was that from. Seems a while ago now since I last heard him use the words “heavy metal”

But either way yes he does have a bad habit of putting down other teams when they beat us almost as if to say “how the fuck could we ever lose to you”, label them a non footballing team or whatever.

 

[MaBigTip]

I think they are all from before his time at Liverpool... That shows how much his philosophy has changed and not for the better, imo.

 

[binomial]

I think they are all from before his time at Liverpool... That shows how much his philosophy has changed and not for the better, imo.

Well.

When you say his philosophy has changed but not for the better....for who? Him or us? Surely you can't talking about us....that philosophy change is what brought us so much success. Has his philosophy changed in the 7-8 years he's been at Liverpool?

Sure it's made a lot of football fans think differently of him, will he care? You'd have to ask him that.

 

[mark1975]

All very true and that's where I wish Klopp could be less stubborn and see whats best for the team as this current moment in time but I understand his position and his values, he doesn't want to see us become what he's loathed about for so long.

I can sort of see the reasoning why he doesn't, because the options are, change tactics and ultimately set the team back by them having to readjust to his preferred style and set up, or stick with it, knowing it's not working but hoping that when it comes to the transfer window, things will be rectified and existing players who remain will be comfortable with the system.

The thing is with football you can't afford to sit on your hands and count everything in the here and now, when looking ahead to the next window. You reach the next window and a player wants to leave, or a player is out with a longterm injury, players decline quicker than you hoped... It's a tough predicament.

Klopp is fantastic, but the ONE lingering criticism in his time here is that he's not very good with making a quick or short term decision. He used to infuriate me "in game" by not always taking the initiative with subs, by sticking with his tried and tested "only sub on 60-70 minutes", he's the same with tactics. He did it against City, completely unexpectedly and it worked, then reverted to type in every other game.

The league is as competitive as I've seen it, despite some of the better sides suffering inconsistent results, there are teams like Brighton and Brentford who play an excellent standard of football, Newcastle and Arsenal look unbeatable, it's as tough a league as it's been and we've picked totally the wrong time to fall by the way side, because beyond City, Arsenal and probably Newcastle, the top 8 is anyones, United could break into the top three, despite their deficiencies. It's mad and Klopp is operating in his own chaotic world amidst a league at it's most chaotic and open.

 

[StevieM]

Only problem with that is that Nunez actually has a very good work rate and isnt shit at pressing. I think it could more be a problem that he isnt integrated in how the team presses. But that isnt working at all in every part of the team this season in all honesty.

Nunez in the only major change to the team from last season and that team functioned perfectly fine.

All I can tell you is our tackles per 90 mins in the attacking 3rd has gone from being the most in the league in each of the previous 3 seasons to being 16th this season, without the tackling stats for the midfield 3rd being materially different.

Nunez may be great at pressing - but it appears it’s not in synch with the pressing that’s been so dominant in previous seasons - so the problem appears to be starting in the forward line.

 

[MaBigTip]

Well.

When you say his philosophy has changed but not for the better....for who? Him or us? Surely you can't talking about us....that philosophy change is what brought us so much success. Has his philosophy changed in the 7-8 years he's been at Liverpool?

Sure it's made a lot of football fans think differently of him, will he care? You'd have to ask him that.

I think its been worse for us in the long run... part of our ascendancy was playing in a style that didn't need the most skilled players or a majority of the ball to win. But we and the squad have slowly gone the other way as we hit the top. The way in which you need the most money and the most skilled players to win. At the pinnacle he changed and it still worked for us, but will the change allow us to re-group pragmatically and ascend again.

 

[mark1975]

Nunez in the only major change to the team from last season and that team functioned perfectly fine.

All I can tell you is our tackles per 90 mins in the attacking 3rd has gone from being the most in the league in each of the previous 3 seasons to being 16th this season, without the tackling stats for the midfield 3rd being materially different.

Nunez may be great at pressing - but it appears it’s not in synch with the pressing that’s been so dominant in previous seasons - so the problem appears to be starting in the forward line.

I really don't think Nunez is the problem, let's not forget, we're not playing with three orthodox forwards now, we have two plus someone filling in. That someone has either been a flailing Firmino, Ox who's been out forever, or Elliott/Carvalho who are still learning. Add that Nunez is new and has been getting to grips with it and Salah is way past his energetic best, it's a combination of loads of factors.

The press used to get us chances and limit the amount we had to defend, but you knew the forward line was backed up by a midfield that covered every blade of grass, which in turn was followed up by a backline that for the most part was switched on to every chance that needed mopping up. Now the midfield is shot, VVD and Robbo are a few tiers off their best, while Trent is playing like he always has - admiring every pass that comes off and thinking it's job done.

Trent has been a luxury for years in a team that was geared up to cover for team mates and allow creative players (like him) to express themselves. Once again, when the chips are down he's a failing point in the team and a focus for an easy goal. He's got no plan B, which is symptomatic of this team and manager.

 

[Dahuge]

Maybe it’s not klopp, maybe it’s Pep who is making all these adjustments to how we play and why we aren’t a klopp team anymore?

 

[tomasjj]

The hardest thing to handle is not adversity, but success.

 

[StevieM]

I really don't think Nunez is the problem, let's not forget, we're not playing with three orthodox forwards now, we have two plus someone filling in. That someone has either been a flailing Firmino, Ox who's been out forever, or Elliott/Carvalho who are still learning. Add that Nunez is new and has been getting to grips with it and Salah is way past his energetic best, it's a combination of loads of factors.

The press used to get us chances and limit the amount we had to defend, but you knew the forward line was backed up by a midfield that covered every blade of grass, which in turn was followed up by a backline that for the most part was switched on to every chance that needed mopping up. Now the midfield is shot, VVD and Robbo are a few tiers off their best, while Trent is playing like he always has - admiring every pass that comes off and thinking it's job done.

Trent has been a luxury for years in a team that was geared up to cover for team mates and allow creative players (like him) to express themselves. Once again, when the chips are down he's a failing point in the team and a focus for an easy goal. He's got no plan B, which is symptomatic of this team and manager.

The forwards and the midfield all work in unison to press - incidentally m, Jota was our most effective presser last season, I believe.

Whatever the problem is - the press isn’t working - our forward line isn’t getting pressure or tackles in on opposition defence, which means they’re getting more time to build attacks.

Trents being held out to dry - he’s been asked to get high up the pitch and press, but if the forward line don’t get pressure on the ball fast enough - then those long balls into space behind Trent become more accurate.

He’s been at fault plenty of times too, but if you set the team up to play in such a specific way and then it doesn’t function right - that ducks everything up.

I might be being overly harsh on Nunez - but injury to Jota means he has to be leading that press better - or at least be finishing off more of the chances he’s getting.

All this talk of physicality in midfield will mean stuff all if they can’t also pass their way through (or over) the increased pressing from opposing teams (eg Leeds, Man Utd, Fulham) and teams that have time to spray accurate balls from deep over the midfield into space behind our CB’s (eg Brentford).

Like I said - the stats are showing a drop off in defensive actions in the attacking 3rd this season.

 

[Brizzle]

Too many problems to list and discuss, but the most troubling thing is that they are obvious to everyone including opposition managers. We are easy to play against and rely on world class moments at the back (Ali) or the front (Mo).

 

[binomial]

We're back to being a 2 man team again.

 

[moron]

We are fucked innit ? - no new signing for the midfield. Say what you want about United - when they bought Casemiro - they essentially bought an arse blocker with the mind of a champion and he is doing the business and they are narrowly winning games. I honestly think if we decided to play in a way that did not involve such a high-line we would win most of our games with the players we have. Right now - it just seems that we either win or we lose and we lose because we keep going a goal behind. The team suffers from a false sense of control that makes them go higher and higher up the pitch and then bang the opposition score and we are fucked. It is the same problem, so I say fuck it - no midfielders ? then let the opposition have the ball - we do the low block and utilize the pace of Salah and Nunez to attack. Its the only way that will work for us if we sign no athletic ball breaker. Our build up is just too slow in games - we cannot even take advantage of situations quickly enough - to much time on the ball and thinking and bang we are up against a low block all the fucking time and then this sideways passing and fuckery on the wing leads to nothing other than us dangerously high up the pitch.

 

[Farkmaster]

We're back to being a 2 man team again.

Gerrard to Owen would have more goals.