Curtinho Wijnaldum

[rurikbird]

I posted about it in the West Ham thread, but I think he deserves his own. Taken together with the end of last season, this is the best and most consistent run Curtis had in the team and it's hard to see him displaced on this form, despite the likes of Gravenberch, Bajcetic, Endo and soon Thiago also pushing for starts and minutes. The disallowed goal would have been icing on the cake for his performance, but even without it, he was definitely top 3 in my opinion.

I think Jones has 3 qualities that make him uniquely valuable in this midfield:

1. Ball retention. He's at 93.9% passing accuracy for the season so far, I'm fairly sure that's the best numbers of all our midfielders (sending @King Binny bat signal). Somehow despite these Wijnaldum-like numbers, his passing is still reasonably adventurous, he doesn't take as many risks as Szoboszlai, but he does progress the ball forward whenever he can. Another part of ball retention is ability to shield and protect the ball under physical challenges – Curtis has noticeably improved in this, maybe not quite Gini levels yet, but he is already the best at this aspect among our current midfielders.
2. Mobility and tactical flexibility. Exactly 3 years ago I wrote a post called "Taking Curtis seriously" where I compared him with Milner in terms of "his tendency to roam into forgotten corners of the pitch." He is really an all-phase midfielder (same category as Gravenberch, I think) and probably the best way to use him is allowing him to wander about the pitch about rather than assigning a narrow tactical role. The beautiful thing about this is that his excellent ball retention means he generally creates more order rather than more chaos when he roams – and because of his ability to cover large distances he can really pop up in all phases of play and contribute something useful in each.
3. Aggression and ball-winning. I think he had something like 4 tackles and 6 overall duels won in the West Ham game; among the midfield 3 in that game he was the one most willing to throw his body around and engage in physical duels – and came out on top in a lot of them against a very physical team. With Curtis there has always been an undercurrent of aggressiveness and basically being a bit of a c*nt – the question was whether he can channel this character trait into battles with opponents or would he turn against Klopp’s culture of discipline or do something else destructive. It seems now he is very much putting his inner aggression into productive use and thus adding much-needed element of almost street baller “bad boy” mentality to our team.

I think he's currently the first choice in the LCM position and it will take something truly special for any challenger to displace him. He is starting to form a bit of an understanding with Szoboszlai as exemplified by the combination for the disallowed goal and how they exchanged positions throughout the game. In short, now is really the time to take Curtis seriously.

 

[StevieM]

Yeah - I agree, he’s playing well and is rightly 1st choice LCM.

I wonder how he’d go swapping with or replacing Mac A - he played in the DM role pre-season - so it might be a rotation option other than Endo, Might be an option with Gravy at LCM.

The only downside to Curtis has been his ability to stay fit - history suggests he’s a bit Gomezy, but let’s hope it was “growing pains” or something.

Either way, I think it’s great that we have a group of midfielders in Curtis, Mac A, Gravy, Slobbers & Harvey that can play in multiple positions across the midfield - I’d include Thiago in that if he wasn’t dead.

Rotating and keeping those guys fresh will make this season very, very interesting.

 

[Frogfish]

Such a pity he was just offside for that goal - it was another sign of our increasing creativity in and around the box. Gorgeous pass from Szobo and a fine finish.

 

[KopRed]

I think he is still lacking in the upper body strength department. He is still getting knocked off the ball quite abit albeit he's improved that aspect of his game.

Gini was a master in ball retention and holding off his opponents just by twisting and staying low.

 

[juniormember]

He’s done very well this season. But I really disagree with ‘Somehow despite these Wijnaldum-like numbers, his passing is still reasonably adventurous’.
He still does this thing where we’ll be on the counter, he’ll run with the ball, others will make runs, then he’ll pretend to take players on but ultimately cut back on his run and pass the ball to a player nearby once we’ve lost momentum.

I see that kind of ‘ball retention’ as a negative in a Klopp side where every microsecond counts in attacking play. Very frustrating to watch.

Everything else, he’s improved loads.

 

[Modo]

Diet Gini...bootleg Gini...pick one.
He's a decent player nothing more, nothing less. His passing stats are ok because he plays it safe all the time.
Also he still holds on to the ball for too long. Some of the stuff he does doesn't make sense.
I don't remember Gini ever holding on to the ball just to prove that he could shrug off the opponent.
See Jones vs Antonio, below.
He does well to hold him off but was it really necessary?

 

[Hansern]

He's so much more than just a decent player now. Has really developed and grown into a very good midfielder that has taken his game to new heights.
Long may it continue.

 

[doctor_mac]

Diet Gini...bootleg Gini...pick one.
He's a decent player nothing more, nothing less. His passing stats are ok because he plays it safe all the time.
Also he still holds on to the ball for too long. Some of the stuff he does doesn't make sense.
I don't remember Gini ever holding on to the ball just to prove that he could shrug off the opponent.
See Jones vs Antonio, below.
He does well to hold him off but was it really necessary?

Is Jones going to be your new Hendo @Modo?

Watch this space!

 

[Dreambeliever]

Loving that Jones is taking that step up.

He has always been a stand out at under age.

Fantastic to have two local lads in the team even if he is a cocky scally.

 

[Modo]

Is Jones going to be your new Hendo @Modo?

Watch this space!

Far from it. Curtis is a more exciting player.
I just don't like having "passengers" on the pitch and at times I do feel he could impose himself more, be more involved.
He has a more attacking role basically like Szobo, so he should do more.

 

[binomial]

There’s a lot more to come from him, if ever stats were misleading this is it….never really a stand out performer for me like an Ali, Szobo, Nunez, Trent, Virg etc can be and his last 3 games I’ve forgotten about already.

Then again I thought the same about Gini and his time here and realised only after his importance and value to the side so maybe it’s just me not appreciating these players enough.

If he can stay fit like Gini was then great, I’m sure he’ll carry on being played…he is a flexible player and has similar qualities Gini had but right now I see a player who adds more off the ball than on it.

 

[rubans]

Loving that Jones is taking that step up.

He has always been a stand out at under age.

Fantastic to have two local lads in the team even if he is a cocky scally.

Yeah, good point on that.
Wondwr who has the most in PL? Chelsea maybe?

 

[Squiggles]

I've always liked watching Jones with the ball at his feet - technically he's always had it. The question was did he had the motivation and general instinct to adapt to the CM position, and he's been proving he has ever since last Christmas. I'm not sure the youth teams did him a service by playing him at LWF for so long and he has had to re-learn his craft whilst adapting to first-team football and bouncing back from injuries. The progress he's made in the last 18 months within that context is impressive.

 

[Buddha]

Diet Gini...bootleg Gini...pick one.
He's a decent player nothing more, nothing less. His passing stats are ok because he plays it safe all the time.
Also he still holds on to the ball for too long. Some of the stuff he does doesn't make sense.
I don't remember Gini ever holding on to the ball just to prove that he could shrug off the opponent.
See Jones vs Antonio, below.
He does well to hold him off but was it really necessary?

I get that you linked the video to the Antonio bit (which was more impressive / rational than you give him credit for), but the video as a whole is at odds with your other points (that he’s not progressive in his passing and hold the ball too long).

 

[rurikbird]

He’s done very well this season. But I really disagree with ‘Somehow despite these Wijnaldum-like numbers, his passing is still reasonably adventurous’.
He still does this thing where we’ll be on the counter, he’ll run with the ball, others will make runs, then he’ll pretend to take players on but ultimately cut back on his run and pass the ball to a player nearby once we’ve lost momentum.

I see that kind of ‘ball retention’ as a negative in a Klopp side where every microsecond counts in attacking play. Very frustrating to watch.

Everything else, he’s improved loads.

This is a good point - this bugs me too when our players do it (Curtis is far from the only one). Sometimes it’s justified - not every attack needs to be lightning quick. It’s also a confidence thing, I think, specifically the confidence in your defensive structure - the more you’re sure there won’t be a catastrophic breakdown if the ball is lost, the more risks you are willing to take.

In any case, I thought Jones had a good balance of caution vs adventure in the last game. When Trent comes back, his “safe” tendencies will counterbalance Trent’s risk-taking.

 

[rurikbird]

Far from it. Curtis is a more exciting player.
I just don't like having "passengers" on the pitch and at times I do feel he could impose himself more, be more involved.
He has a more attacking role basically like Szobo, so he should do more.

We have so many midfielders now who are capable of playing line-breaking passes: Macca, Szobo, Trent, Gravenberch, Thiago (RIP); we need someone alongside them who never loses the ball, i.e. the Gini role. I think Gravenberch is another player who could potentially do this role long-term, he has the attributes, but at the moment I feel he is actually too aggressive at times, like he feels pressure to “do more” in order to prove himself. Sometimes less is more! Anyway, the competition for this position will be exciting.

 

[mark1975]

He's progressing as you hope any young player would, as is Elliott. Occasionally you get prodigious obvious talents, but they're few and far between, that doesn't mean that you can't still unearth the odd gem who takes longer to reach a top level. They will both be very good players for us, their talent is obvious, even if there has been a few head scratching moments about where they fit.

The all or nothing nature of how we judge homegrown/young players at times is staggeringly myopic. He's had all the indulgence he deserves, because he's a good player who can save us a packet in transfer fees. We've seen Elliott be labelled to slow, lightweight, unable to hold a position down, etc, and we've seen Jones given every bland, lazy comparison there is out there because of the usual narrow-mindedness we see when it comes to players of their ilk.

 

[doctor_mac]

We have so many midfielders now who are capable of playing line-breaking passes: Macca, Szobo, Trent, Gravenberch, Thiago (RIP); we need someone alongside them who never loses the ball, i.e. the Gini role. I think Gravenberch is another player who could potentially do this role long-term, he has the attributes, but at the moment I feel he is actually too aggressive at times, like he feels pressure to “do more” in order to prove himself. Looking forward to the competition!

He also doesn't have that ability yet to just be an anchor on the ball, to be able to retain possession in tight positions and be a limpet on that thing. Getting the ball off Gini required hydraulic bolt cutters. Gravybaby needs to work hard if he is to develop this skill.

 

[Modo]

I get that you linked the video to the Antonio bit (which was more impressive / rational than you give him credit for), but the video as a whole is at odds with your other points (that he’s not progressive in his passing and hold the ball too long).

I just wanted to show his "battle" with Antonio, but I agree the rest I have no qualms with really.

 

[Beamrider]

He's progressing as you hope any young player would, as is Elliott. Occasionally you get prodigious obvious talents, but they're few and far between, that doesn't mean that you can't still unearth the odd gem who takes longer to reach a top level. They will both be very good players for us, their talent is obvious, even if there has been a few head scratching moments about where they fit.

The all or nothing nature of how we judge homegrown/young players at times is staggeringly myopic. He's had all the indulgence he deserves, because he's a good player who can save us a packet in transfer fees. We've seen Elliott be labelled to slow, lightweight, unable to hold a position down, etc, and we've seen Jones given every bland, lazy comparison there is out there because of the usual narrow-mindedness we see when it comes to players of their ilk.

Agree with all of that. I think the difficulty at a club like ours is that (game) time is a luxury that we don't always have. There's a pressure to perform straight away (probably more from fans than the coaching staff). I've talked in the past about how we tend to let promising players go to mid-table teams before buying them for a premium after a few years of development in the league at a team with lower aspirations, principally because we can't take the risk of throwing them into the team when they're far from the finished article. I think the kids coming through face those same pressures, without always having the game time they need to develop, because we keep them here. We don't always loan out the really good ones, when perhaps we should.
So it's pleasing to see Curtis and Harvey being given time to develop within our set-up, and they do get a lot more stick than they're due because fans' expectations for them are often too high.

 

[rurikbird]

He also doesn't have that ability yet to just be an anchor on the ball, to be able to retain possession in tight positions and be a limpet on that thing. Getting the ball off Gini required hydraulic bolt cutters. Gravybaby needs to work hard if he is to develop this skill.

True. To be fair, Gini massively improved in this after he came to Liverpool - hopefully Gravvy will be coached in a similar way. Physically and technically, he has everything to make getting the ball off him impossible.

 

[rurikbird]

[article]"Yesterday [Tuesday]," replied Klopp when asked at one point he had informed Jones that he would be captaining his boyhood club for just the second time. "When I told him he would play right-back, same moment. I sold the right-back idea with the captaincy, let me say it like this. But he was already completely excited when I told him he would be right-back.

"The way he executed it was super special I have to say wow. Super smart. We thought about him because we can’t play Stefan [Bajcetic] long, we have to be careful with him. Joey [Gomez], will be okay for the weekend but was not okay for today.

"For Trent, it was too early, so we need to find solutions. Curtis was always in my mind as a potential solution because he is football-smart. He enjoys being on the ball and the deeper you are, the more often you can get the ball."

"It was a top performance, I have to say, for the first time for him in a strange position, he did really," added the German. "I liked it a lot. He is in a good moment so he could probably play any position at the moment. We will try to use him as often as possible in his natural position."[/article]
A vote of confidence of sorts from Klopp. He is really turning Curtis into a Milner!

 

[moron]

@rurikbird - I won't say anything about Curtis as everyone knows my feelings towards him as a player and how highly I rate him across European football not just this little tiny Island of ours. But thank you so much for posting all the stats and stuff. I like the idea of using him to roam around a bit more but the lack of a solid 6 just means we cannot give him that license I guess. For the doubters - just remember - just fucking remember this non-losing streak started when he was introduced into the team after a period of rest and recovery he needed.

 

[juniormember]

@rurikbird - I won't say anything about Curtis as everyone knows my feelings towards him as a player and how highly I rate him across European football not just this little tiny Island of ours. But thank you so much for posting all the stats and stuff. I like the idea of using him to roam around a bit more but the lack of a solid 6 just means we cannot give him that license I guess. For the doubters - just remember - just fucking remember this non-losing streak started when he was introduced into the team after a period of rest and recovery he needed.

LOL

 

[rurikbird]

LOL

I think @moron's undying and unconditional love for Curtis is among the most pure and genuine emotions I've seen here on SCM. The fact that it's directed towards a homegrown player that is still under-appreciated by many is doubly sweet. Suit yourself, @moron, we're also rooting for your boy, just maybe in a slightly more critical/cynical way than you!

 

[rurikbird]

Some good points here. I think in the full video they also analyze some of his shortcomings, but I am not a subscriber.

 

[StevieM]

I think @moron's undying and unconditional love for Curtis is among the most genuine and innocent emotions I've seen here on SCM. The fact that it's directed towards a homegrown player that is still under-appreciated by many is doubly sweet. Suit yourself, @moron, we're also rooting for your boy, just maybe in a slightly more critical/cynical way than you!

There’s a lot of love going around.

Moron loves Curtis, Binomial loves Darwin, Dreamie loves Ange and whoever’s playing for Man Utd and Bluebird loves absolutely everyone not currently playing for Liverpool.

The rest of us will just have to make do with loving Slobbers for now.

 

[Frogfish]

Some good points here. I think in the full video they also analyze some of his shortcomings, but I am not a subscriber.

Nice analysis. This chart stood out for me - it's insane that his possession stats (all virtually identical) are as high as all those highly rated number 6s. Just read down that list.

 

[moron]

There’s a lot of love going around.

Moron loves Curtis, Binomial loves Darwin, Dreamie loves Ange and whoever’s playing for Man Utd and Bluebird loves absolutely everyone not currently playing for Liverpool.

The rest of us will just have to make do with loving Slobbers for now.

@StevieM - my Love for Darwin is huge, in fact when I see him play in that number 9 it brings tears to my eyes. I have seen glimpses in him that remind me of peak Torres, Suarez, and running with the ball with pace like R9 in his early days. People say he had a bad season last year but I genuinely think he was making the runs you would expect of a number 9 BUT because our bunch have no long term DNA of playing with a pure number 9 they probably did not notice or thought "what the fuck is that guy doing - Origi's left and it's not Origi time yet.".

I get this glowing warm feeling when I know we have a team of just pure fucking ballers now, who can run as well. It's amazing.

LOL @StevieM at : Dreamie loves Ange and whoever’s playing for Man Utd and Bluebird loves absolutely everyone not currently playing for Liverpool

 

[Tinto]

@moron