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Evolution or revolution?

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rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member
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It's interesting how perspective shifts with time. During the season at times it felt like the squad is barely holding together and this summer will surely be the time for major changes, especially in midfield. Now the dust has settled; it looks like we're out of the running on our one major midfield target in Tchouameni and another one – Bellingham – will stay in Dortmund for one more season before hopefully making the right decision and coming here. On the strikers front there doesn't seem to be so much suitable talent available, other than Darwin Nunez, who might or might not be in our price range. We're losing Mane, but already have the replacement (for the LW version of Sadio) in Diaz, we have added Fabio Carvalho to be a Firmino/Jota alternative as a "false 9" and Salah is probably staying for one more season. Overall, I'm starting to have a feeling that Klopp will try to squeeze one more good season out of the current group, with some tinkering around the edges, and next summer will be the time for major changes.

Here's my assessment of the squad as it stands:

Goalkeepers:
1. Alisson
2. Kelleher (if he decides to stay on)
3. Pitaluga
10/10 – I've never seen so much quality and depth in that department for LFC and we have more talented youngsters coming through the pipeline, all apparently fully trained in the ways of the "LFC goalkeeping philosophy" – that's new! If Kelleher leaves on loan, I think we would go for an experienced backup for a season; either way I'm sure we'll be fine.

Centre-backs:
1. Van Dijk
2. Konate
3. Matip
4. Gomez
5. Van der Berg?
10/10 – once again, we couldn't possibly be in a better position. We have the best CB in the world, Konate has settled and won a starting place by the end of last season, Matip can now transition into an experienced back-up role and if Gomez doesn't push for a move it makes perfect sense to keep him as he can cover 2 positions, has good relationship with Van Dijk and his recovery speed is a useful attribute. I'm guessing Nate will be sold – good luck to him! – and VDB will probably get a chance to impress in the cups.

Full-backs:
RB 1. Trent
RB 2. Calvin Ramsay (almost signed)
RB 3. Gomez, Milner, Van der Berg
LB 1. Robbo
LB 2. Tsimikas
9/10 – If Calvin Ramsay comes here and proves to be a capable back-up for Trent, the way Tsimikas established himself on the other side, then we are all set in the full-back department. I liked Neco, but his style is quite different from Trent – he is more of a runner than a crosser and maybe eventually not a RB at all. By all descriptions Ramsay is much more like Trent, so I think this change makes sense. Having another Scottish lad at full-back wouldn't hurt either.

Central Midfield:
1. Fabinho
2. Thiago
3. Hendo
4. Keita
5. Milner
6. Jones
7. Elliott
7/10 – I expect both Hendo and Milner to play mostly DM next season; this is the one position where aging players can still be effective as the value of their football brain takes precedence over legs. Unfortunately Thiago aside, we don't have world-class quality and consistency in the RCM/LCM positions – and now that the possibility of signing Tchouameni is gone, we'll probably have to make do without a major addition until next summer. It would actually make sense to take Wijnaldum back on loan for a year or sign someone similar who could be a quality stop-gap. Ox will surely go; Jones and Elliott should be able to contribute more than they did last season (which wasn't much, mostly due to injuries). I believe in Morton but it would be better for him to go on loan – he needs 1-2 seasons of playing every week to develop as a midfielder capable of challenging for a place at LFC.

Forwards:
1. Salah
2. Diaz
3. Jota
4. Firmino
5. Carvalho
6. Gordon
7. Minamino (if he stays)
8/10 – If Salah and Jota get back to their 1st half of the season form and with Diaz having a full pre-season to settle and fully integrate into the team, our first-choice front 3 has every chance to be formidable and effective once again. The addition of the supremely talented Carvalho will add another exciting and unpredictable element to the attack and I think Firmino will probably stay on for another season to mentor the young Portuguese on the intricacies of playing as a "false 9" in the Premier League. I have a feeling that Kaide Gordon will emerge as a first-team player next season and will start getting regular minutes in Salah's position due to the 5 subs rule change. Minamino has been an ideal back-up striker and I have no problem with him staying, however in this current collection of forwards we are missing that physical striker that can be a Plan B, like Origi was – if Minamino does leave, I would like to find a young tall and quick striker to fill that role.

Overall 44/50 – this team has one or two problems that don't have an quick fix, but overall we are starting from a high baseline and should have enough to compete on all fronts even if the only changes to the squad are losing Mane and gaining Diaz (compared to the start of last season), Carvalho and Ramsay. We're not in a desperate need for new signings, however I would like to see a couple of precise additions, like an experienced midfielder that can plug the gap until next summer and possibly a young physically gifted striker to replace Origi. I think we'll sign a new first-team attacker only if that's a player Klopp envisions in our front 3 long-term – we will wait for the right player to become available and won't compromise on quality.

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I think you are slightly undervaluing the midfield. You only have to look at the results from the Fabinho - Thiago partnership and indeed our full season results to see that the starting midfield of Fabs-Thiago-Hendo is very powerful. Keita is a good replacement against most teams and Carvalho is the new addition (he is a midfielder not an attacker though of course we could use him as a deep-lying #9 but also as the AM with Fabs + Thiago behind Jota (or a.n.other) ahead of him.

I would be very surprised if we don't buy a new midfielder with Ox. leaving and with Jones & Elliott yet to be convincing/dominating. Unless Klopp himself is convinced Keita/Carvalho/Elliott is going to be enough for the 3rd advanced slot ahead of 2 of Hendo/Fabs+Thiago (when they don't play as a trio).

I can't see Gordon, at his age, becoming anything like a regular - he'll likely get cup games and a few sub appearances here are there. I would love him to but more likely Elliott will fill in on the right as/when required. I just can't see us letting Minamino go if we lose Mane and with Origi gone. I can however very much see us buying a new forward.

If we add a powerful new midfielder (to replace Hendo as the de facto 3rd to Fabs+Thiago) that makes the midfield, currently 7.5/10 for me, a very solid 8.5 - 9/10. Ditto the attack which minus Mane is a little lacking. Nunez for example would take us from 8/10 to 9/10.

Currently 44.5/10, with two more unproven signings maybe we could reach 46.5/50 and challenge for everything. Without the signings we will need to forget about a Quad and play squad/youth in the FAC/LC. We would also need to have very good days to beat City/Chelsea in the PL so not convinced it could win the league and it looks like a team that won't make the CL final falling at the Semi/Quarters stage.
 
I think you are slightly undervaluing the midfield. You only have to look at the results from the Fabinho - Thiago partnership and indeed our full season results to see that the starting midfield of Fabs-Thiago-Hendo is very powerful. Keita is a good replacement against most teams and Carvalho is the new addition (he is a midfielder not an attacker though of course we could use him as a deep-lying #9 but also as the AM with Fabs + Thiago behind Jota (or a.n.other) ahead of him.

I would be very surprised if we don't buy a new midfielder with Ox. leaving and with Jones & Elliott yet to be convincing/dominating. Unless Klopp himself is convinced Keita/Carvalho/Elliott is going to be enough for the 3rd advanced slot ahead of 2 of Hendo/Fabs+Thiago (when they don't play as a trio).

I can't see Gordon, at his age, becoming anything like a regular - he'll likely get cup games and a few sub appearances here are there. I would love him to but more likely Elliott will fill in on the right as/when required. I just can't see us letting Minamino go if we lose Mane and with Origi gone. I can however very much see us buying a new forward.

If we add a powerful new midfielder (to replace Hendo as the de facto 3rd to Fabs+Thiago) that makes the midfield, currently 7.5/10 for me, a very solid 8.5 - 9/10. Ditto the attack which minus Mane is a little lacking. Nunez for example would take us from 8/10 to 9/10.

Currently 44.5/10, with two more unproven signings maybe we could reach 46.5/50 and challenge for everything. Without the signings we will need to forget about a Quad and play squad/youth in the FAC/LC. We would also need to have very good days to beat City/Chelsea in the PL so not convinced it could win the league and it looks like a team that won't make the CL final falling at the Semi/Quarters stage.

See you're a glass half full kinda guy when it comes to our team. I land on the glass half empty. I thought he was over generous to our midfield, I have it at 6/10 and our definite weak point.

So perhaps Rurik has it right.
 
Midfield is our Achilles heel as far as I'm concerned. Very little depth that doesn't require us to change how we play, or stifle the ones coming in. All pretty in passing but no real drive from there unless Elliot is playing.

We need a strong ball carrying midfielder to add another facet to our game
 
Midfield is our Achilles heel as far as I'm concerned. Very little depth that doesn't require us to change how we play, or stifle the ones coming in. All pretty in passing but no real drive from there unless Elliot is playing.

We need a strong ball carrying midfielder to add another facet to our game

Or a playmaker. At one point in recent seasons City had De Bruyne, Silva and Mahrez, we've got no one who consistently opens teams up.
 
Though I agree in the most part, I also think Rurik is a little generous with the midfield, being a year older also I think it's a serious cause for concern.
I'd probably put Thiago as my favourite player in an LFC shirt, I could watch him run around and kick the ball around all day long its poetry. However it's not enough and he has a mistake or two in him per game.

Also, best case let's say 44/50.. we're playing at such a level and against such competition that we need to be at 49/50 which sucks
 
I agree that our goalkeepers, centre backs and full backs - assuming we bring in Ramsay - are more than good enough and we should have confidence in them going into the new season. I'm not as convinced about the midfield and forward options though. If we assume that Henderson backs up Fabinho, and that Milner won't play all that much, then we're left with Thiago and Keita for the LCM positions - both injury prone and Keita unreliable - and Jones/Elliott for the RCM position - both unproven. I got really pissed off with Keita last season after being if not quite in his camp, at least in a camp with a neutral stance towards his camp; but what worries me more is the ability of Jones and Elliott to step up this season and hold down a spot in the team. Jones seriously needs to start consistently playing as good as he thinks he is, otherwise he'll not have a future here. Elliott is still a bit of an unknown to me, certainly in positional terms.

Forwards - Diaz is great. Salah is still great. I don't think we have decent alternatives to either of them, positionally. Jota went off the boil alarmingly last season. Bobby is past his best; I'd rather see him drop into midfield now, to be honest. Taki I'd be happy to keep but again, I'm not sure where his best position is. It's expecting an awful lot from Carvalho to come in and play regularly in his first season. So I think we're light up top.

In short, I think we need a central midfielder, someone who is physically dominant, and two forwards; one of those needs to be someone who primarily plays through the middle.
 
The more I watch Bellingham, the more I'm convinced he'd be perfect for us in our midfield. Especially with Thiago pulling the strings alongside him.

Yes, I think he's the one. Klopp commented that we did not play "inside RM's formation" but played better when we did so. He'd be a perfectly chaotic addition to our midfield to accomplish this, and we'd find ourselves beating the likes of Chelsea, Spurs and City with more consistency.
 
Though I agree in the most part, I also think Rurik is a little generous with the midfield, being a year older also I think it's a serious cause for concern.
I'd probably put Thiago as my favourite player in an LFC shirt, I could watch him run around and kick the ball around all day long its poetry. However it's not enough and he has a mistake or two in him per game.

Also, best case let's say 44/50.. we're playing at such a level and against such competition that we need to be at 49/50 which sucks

Key midfielders being a year older would be a concern if Klopp had Hendo and Milner play box-to-box roles again next season – but I'm assuming they would mostly drop to the DM role where they can preserve their energy and where their experience would be an asset. Thiago's game was never about pace anyway; he'll be fine. Jones and Elliott being a year older is a plus. I thought about a 6/10, but a group that includes the Fabinho and Thiago pairing cannot be ranked so low. And 8/10 might seem right when everyone is fit, but a few of them are injury-prone and we already saw how disruptive that could be last season.

One other thing to keep in mind is that a lot of our current midfield pieces don't fit with each other or only fit in certain combinations. For instance Hendo and Fabinho as a double-pivot doesn't work – that reduces our options. Thiago, Keita and Jones all prefer LCM to RCM and playing 2 of them means someone will have to compromise. Keita cannot be trusted to defend and Jones is generally inconsistent, etc etc – all of this means while on paper we have enough bodies in midfield, we only truly have a handful of workable combinations between them. That's why someone like Wijnaldum was so valuable – he could play with anyone in any system or game situation and was always fit. I would feel a lot better about our midfield if we had someone like that – perhaps that Soler guy, if the Echo reports are true, could be a signing in this mould.
 
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It's funny how the result of a couple games can change your entire outlook. Had we have won the CL and / or the league, I wouldn't have particularly cared either way. This team would've achieved what it deserved / needed to achieve and would've been fine with the transitional period that is lurking around the corner.

For me there are just a few too many question marks to be really optimistic about our chances without a couple of very good / astute signings coming in this summer.

In midfield we remain an injury or two away from a complete write off. Fabinho and Thiago are top tier but we can't put them through a 60 game season. Henderson is still the only one that can offer that lift in terms of mentality and running power but ideally he'd be filling in when we need him. Even moreso with Milner. We all have high hopes for Elliot and Carvahlo but I doubt anyone including Klopp is relying on them to be key players from the offset. Keita remains an enigma and no one needs any further proof that he can't be relied upon at the very highest level.

In attack there are also very big question marks. We finished the season having to work extremely hard for goals. We can all hope that it was just tiredness or whatever else but it might not be. It might be the right decision to wait for the right player but in the meantime we might suffer as a result.

Salah finished the season a shadow of himself and seems to have one foot out the door with national coaches and agents acting like cunts on the sidelines. He might get back to his best next season or other factors might make that difficult.

The arrival of Diaz seems to displaced Jota and Klopp will need to figure out how to get the best out of him again because he's been a valuable source of goals for us. Diaz has been an undoubtedly been a success thus far but remains to be seen if he can replace Mane in terms of goal output or whether he'll end up being more of a creator and we need to compensate for that elsewhere.
 
The arrival of Diaz seems to displaced Jota and Klopp will need to figure out how to get the best out of him again because he's been a valuable source of goals for us. Diaz has been an undoubtedly been a success thus far but remains to be seen if he can replace Mane in terms of goal output or whether he'll end up being more of a creator and we need to compensate for that elsewhere.

I think it's more accurate to say that Mane moving to the middle has displaced Jota – he hasn't started at CF since the Newcastle game at the end of April. He has not been nearly as productive on the wing.
 
I think it's more accurate to say that Mane moving to the middle has displaced Jota – he hasn't started at CF since the Newcastle game at the end of April. He has not been nearly as productive on the wing.

That isn’t going to get better if we sign Nunez - given he plays in the same positions as Jota.
 
I think 7 for our midfield is about right.

Only City and Chelsea have a stronger midfield. City’s would be 10 and Chelsea 8.

It’s the weakest part of the team and we do need a new body in there.
 
Not my preferred choice, but tielemanns Will be cut price. 25 perhaps.

Rather Ramsey, who is more The type we need, but T is versatile and could be good The next three yrs.
 
We should go all out for Bellingham and Jamal Musiala.

That'll be our backbone for at least the next 5-7 years, guarantee for lots of silverware too. We'll easily break even after a couple years, with lots of spare change. Good risk/reward there.

I'm also starting to fancy the idea of Declan Rice too. Good player and great engine. But we'll probably be priced out, like all English players usually are.
 
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We should go all out for Bellingham and Jamal Musiala.

That'll be our backbone for at least the next 5-7 years, guarantee for lots of silverware too. We'll easily break even after a couple years, with lots of spare change. Good risk/reward there.

I'm also starting to fancy the idea of Declan Rice too. Good player and great engine. But we'll probably be priced out, like all English players usually are.

£300m worth in 3 players right there.
 
Image rights.
Sponsors.
Advertising revenue.
Profit from shirt and merchandise sales.
Global fanbase - revenue.
Prize money from multiple CL, Premier League titles and Cups.

Risk/reward ratio = to the moon

But in reality, there's lots of other factors involved e.g. we won't break our wage structure, so yeah we'd probably settle for Tammy Abraham, Sarr and Bissouma instead. *cries*
 
So Darwin’s definitely part of the evolution.

To be honest, Darwin - if we get this deal over the line - would be more like a part of the Revolution: we haven’t had a “proper” #9 since the heady days of Christian Benteke. Both us and City are trying something different next season…
 
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I’ve said it before - I don’t mind the idea of extending Firmino as a squad option - like we do with Milner.

He can fill a number of roles and teach the kids how to press like a monster.
 
I’ve said it before - I don’t mind the idea of extending Firmino as a squad option - like we do with Milner.

He can fill a number of roles and teach the kids how to press like a monster.
He'd get far less playing time than Milner did at his age, so I think it would depend completely on Firmino and how motivated he is to play every week.
 
I’ve said it before - I don’t mind the idea of extending Firmino as a squad option - like we do with Milner.

He can fill a number of roles and teach the kids how to press like a monster.
Firmino is on 180k a week, and is in obvious physical decline which is evidenced by the fact that he had more niggling injuries last year than we've ever seen before. The one thing you could generally rely on Firmino was his constant availability. If that too is going, then it wouldn't be smart giving him a new deal unless he agrees to a substantial pay cut.

I think for his own sake, he needs to go to an easier league and have a nice few years before retiring.
 
Firmino is on 180k a week, and is in obvious physical decline which is evidenced by the fact that he had more niggling injuries last year than we've ever seen before. The one thing you could generally rely on Firmino was his constant availability. If that too is going, then it wouldn't be smart giving him a new deal unless he agrees to a substantial pay cut.

I think for his own sake, he needs to go to an easier league and have a nice few years before retiring.

Yeah - I would be doing something like Milner - reduce his wages, etc - depends whether he wants to play a reduced role but still be involved in big games and winning things or have a regular starting role elsewhere and not.

It’s not as if many other teams are going to offer him £180k a week at 32 - particularly in an “easier” league.

He could go to Italy or Spain - but he’s not going to be a starter for a top side there.
 
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