Keeping it on the deck

[mark1975]

There seems to be a trend in the Premiership these days, or maybe there always has been. Those at the top end bring in technically gifted players, while those at the other end, aside from the occasional flash in the pan like Swansea, like to use a bit more brawn and play more direct, using power and aerial ability to undo teams.

It seems more and more of us are trying to adopt the Spanish method (that was once our own) of good, pass and move football, playing the ball in tight spaces quickly, making the opposition work off the ball and then looking for the killer pass, or in Arsenal's case, trying to pass the ball into the net.

Which brings us to the old fashioned centre forward. While they continue to be a thorn in the side of many of the top teams when playing against the minnows, they seem a dying breed at the top of the game. Ibrahimovic made it to Barca and has made it at the top end of the game, but he has more technical quality than most, and even this side of his game wasn't enough to stop his stay at the top being short lived. His massive frame and thus, him prompting more direct play, saw him (despite his cost) being more of a plan B than a permanent figure. The same could be said of Berbatov at United. So it seems unless you're happy to play direct these days, with set pieces and crosses into the box being a big feature of your game, then you're likely to deem the likes of Carroll, Crouch and co as just a 'different' option to throw on in the hope the ball will stick to them in one way or another - they're there for the physical aspect, above anything else.

So is the centre forward a dying breed, or has it taken it's position in the dugout, as the 'cause havoc in the last 20 option'? Or has it always been this way? Pace, movement and intelligence seem the most important aspect of this league and the best leagues in the World. We've seen the same at International level, despite the cyclic inevitability that someone like Greece will pop up now and then and pull a shock.

Ultimately, if you want to win consistently at the top end of the game, then football seems to (rightfully) be the winner, in spite of Chelsea's dogged Champions League displays last season. In the long term I get the feeling the big burly centre forward is a side show. Has it always been that way? Where does that leave aerial ability? The likes of Garcia had it in spades, but used it fleetingly, so you'd have to argue that strength on the deck is the most important thing above all, getting the odd headed goal is important, but again, a means to and end and not the Plan A many of us seem headed towards these days.

And besides, half the centre forwards knocking about these days are shite in the air anyway!

 

[rampage]

I think the dying breed is the old fashioned winger.

 

[mark1975]

I think the dying breed is the old fashioned winger.

I don't know, it seems it's changed alot from 442 to more teams playing with three in the middle of the park and three forwards.

 

[FoxForceFive]

You miss out Drogba, who seems to defy this hypothesis somewhat.

Good post though, very well written, & absence of Drogba aside, find it hard to argue.

 

[FoxForceFive]

I think the dying breed is the old fashioned winger.

True, inverted wingers or attacking full backs (neil, where are you?) have endangered them. They're not extinct though, in downing's case, unfortunately so.

 

[hmmmmm1]

These days you need your wingers to score at least10 goals

 

[mark1975]

You miss out Drogba, who seems to defy this hypothesis somewhat.

Good post though, very well written, & absence of Drogba aside, find it hard to argue.

I did mean to shoehorn him onto my point about Chelsea, he's the complete forward, but as you say, he plays the centre forward role perfectly. He kinds points out the difference though, because the reason why it works with him and he's a cut above is because he has technique, mobility and he's intelligent.

 

[mark1975]

These days you need your wingers to score at least10 goals

True, but I think they need to be the complete (mixed?) package while not necessarily excelling as a forward or as a wide player. When we had a midfield of Spud, Riise and Gerrard (with Didi) we got 10 goals each usually, or thereabouts, from Spud and Riise, but we lacked creativity. I think now, you see either forwards pushed wide (especially ones with pace) or wide men converted to a more attacking role. In some instances you have players like Aguero, who are the dream player, capable of playing across the line, and then you have players like Nasri, who are link players capable of doing a job in the wide roles. It just points to the system itself being a whole lot more versatile than 442, because in the two banks of three you can combine players well to make them compliment each other, while compensating easier for certain players weaknesses, ie, playing with a central midfield three, having two that are fairly solid while freeing up someone ahead of them with less defensive capability, like a Silva or whatever.

 

[hmmmmm1]

Now our midfielders lack creativity and goals.

Last season (albeit under no pressure) when maxi and raul were playing, we were a joy to watch.

Great movement and goals.

City when they were tried to win games always played nasri over milner, who is more old fashioned, boots on chalk winger

 

[mark1975]

Now our midfielders lack creativity and goals.

Last season (albeit under no pressure) when maxi and raul were playing, we were a joy to watch.

Great movement and goals.

City when they were tried to win games always played nasri over milner, who is more old fashioned, boots on chalk winger

Yeah, I think we shot the season dead by losing Ming and dropping Maxi, the midfield and attack became stagnant and predictable.

 

[Mamma Mia]

the reason why it works with him and he's a cut above is because he has technique, mobility and he's intelligent.

I think you've answered your own thread.

 

[hmmmmm1]

Yeah, I think we shot the season dead by losing Ming and dropping Maxi, the midfield and attack became stagnant and predictable.

Do English players have the movement/game Intelligence to play the same role.

Kinda saw this at the Euros with England, all the players seemed static

Compare Maxi to Hendo/Downing the latter 2 can, pass and control the ball just as well, its Maxi runs and movement that make the difference.

Can this sort of thing be coached, as 2 decent English managers haven't had much luck?

Though Venables in 96 had England playing like a continental team, was that his coaching or did he just have better players?

 

[mark1975]

I think he had better players, we had some intelligent players at that time, and Gazza who was continental in style anyway, Shearer was always a clever striker, as was Teddy, then we had McManaman popping up everywhere and the delivery and setpiece play of Beckham, the team had pretty much everything, bar a top centre half and a decent holding player.

 

[RolandG]

The big centre forward is a dying breed much the same as true pacy goalscoring wingers.

 

[hmmmmm1]

Pretty much.

 

[Ryan]

There seems to be a trend in the Premiership these days, or maybe there always has been. Those at the top end bring in technically gifted players, while those at the other end, aside from the occasional flash in the pan like Swansea, like to use a bit more brawn and play more direct, using power and aerial ability to undo teams.

It seems more and more of us are trying to adopt the Spanish method (that was once our own) of good, pass and move football, playing the ball in tight spaces quickly, making the opposition work off the ball and then looking for the killer pass, or in Arsenal's case, trying to pass the ball into the net.

Which brings us to the old fashioned centre forward. While they continue to be a thorn in the side of many of the top teams when playing against the minnows, they seem a dying breed at the top of the game. Ibrahimovic made it to Barca and has made it at the top end of the game, but he has more technical quality than most, and even this side of his game wasn't enough to stop his stay at the top being short lived. His massive frame and thus, him prompting more direct play, saw him (despite his cost) being more of a plan B than a permanent figure. The same could be said of Berbatov at United. So it seems unless you're happy to play direct these days, with set pieces and crosses into the box being a big feature of your game, then you're likely to deem the likes of Carroll, Crouch and co as just a 'different' option to throw on in the hope the ball will stick to them in one way or another - they're there for the physical aspect, above anything else.

So is the centre forward a dying breed, or has it taken it's position in the dugout, as the 'cause havoc in the last 20 option'? Or has it always been this way? Pace, movement and intelligence seem the most important aspect of this league and the best leagues in the World. We've seen the same at International level, despite the cyclic inevitability that someone like Greece will pop up now and then and pull a shock.

Ultimately, if you want to win consistently at the top end of the game, then football seems to (rightfully) be the winner, in spite of Chelsea's dogged Champions League displays last season. In the long term I get the feeling the big burly centre forward is a side show. Has it always been that way? Where does that leave aerial ability? The likes of Garcia had it in spades, but used it fleetingly, so you'd have to argue that strength on the deck is the most important thing above all, getting the odd headed goal is important, but again, a means to and end and not the Plan A many of us seem headed towards these days.

And besides, half the centre forwards knocking about these days are shite in the air anyway!

Mark, I’m glad you’ve touched on the difference between top sides and lower table sides in how they use centre forwards cos it better exemplifies the needs of the modern day forward than anything else.

For the most part (excluding your Swansea’s cos they’re the aberration) sides come into the premier league from the Championship with a way of playing that is far different from the top 5 or 6 teams. A few reasons for that – the Championship is all about getting out of, the players are required to play more games with less rest (usually due to smaller sqauds), and by and large the squads are made up of English players – contrast the foreigners in the PL with those in the Championship, it’s insane – which usually means the style of football follows the similar British path of tacking, chasing, harrying, big brut CF’s, and hard as fuck defenders. I’m stereotyping, but it’s not far off. Take the QPR side that Warnock got promoted; 10 chunks of wood and Adel Taraadbt. Fancy, pretentious football took West Ham down to the Championship. Brutal, route one shit has got them back into the Premier League. You get my drift.

Anyway, I’m digressing. So these sides come into the PL with a way of playing. Unless they bring in 11 quality players who can adapt and change a football style over 2 summer months, they’re going to stick with what they know. But, if anything they get worse. They retreat into a full on defensive mode. Have a look at the signings a newly promoted team makes and they’re nearly always the same ones; strong, commanding centre half who has proved it in the PL already, and a strong, commanding CF.

The latter type is what we need to focus on. For the most part, he is going to touch the ball about 100 times less a game than your Rooney’s and Suarez’s. He’s predominantly an out ball. His role is to work the defenders, hold it up, be strong in the air, be bale to keep it, and knock in 10 goals a season. That’s a success. It’s hard as fuck being isolated like that, so you’ve got to work your cunt off for little reward for the most part. Kevin Doyle, Heskey, Zigic, Kenwyne Jones, Zaki, Crouch, Graham, Fletcher, Yakubu, Jason Roberts, I could go on. All cut from the same cloth. These are the prototypes for that style of football. You could argue that these guys do as good a job (albeit in a different sense) as the Rooney’s and Suarez’s of the world, so long as they keep their side in the PL – which coincidentally, most of them did.

How would any of that lot go at a top club that plays a different style and has different requirements? Badly is my guess.

On the flipside; how would Suarez, Silva, Arshavin, Hernandez, etc go playing for Wigan?

You cut your cloth according to your style, not to your player. Which brings us to Carroll. He does not suit the way we play football. I’m not saying he’s a Championship player either (even those his best form came there whilst at Newcastle) before you fly off the handle. He’d suit certain teams very well. But not us. Unless we change our style of play this is, which I can’t see happening. What’s the point in having Gerrard, Suarez, Lucas, Borini (?), Agger, Johnson, etc etc and not playing to their strengths because you’ve got one anomaly?

Often you’ve got strikers too who’s suitability to the team is overshadowed by their goals too. Djibril Cisse. What did he score for us, 19 goals in fuck all starts? Good record that, but he didn’t suit the team. United sold Van Nistelrooy, replaced him with Michael Carrick and they won the league. Ferguson stuck Rooney on the left wing to accommodate a ‘free’ role for Ronaldo. Berbatov won the golden boot and he sits his arse on the pine every week, and Defoe’s apparently the best finisher at Spurs, yet he never gets on the ground.

At our level, which should be/is aiming for titles, you can’t afford to have the focal point of your attack not being at the very heart of your attacking. When we were utterly buzzing 3 or 4 years ago under Rafa, we had Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt, Alonso, Riera and Benayoun all on exactly the same wavelength. We cut the cunt out of teams. I remember watching us put 6 (I think) past Aston Villa and thinking ‘how does this get any better’ – we looked like we were going to score everytime we went forward. Contrast that to last season and our utter lack of cohesion as an attacking unit. Night and day.

So, to stop myself from rambling on forever, you find a style that works for the collective rather than the individual, and you get the players to fit into it and build on it.

Carroll will score goals, he may even score plenty for us, but he just doesn’t fit.

 

[mark1975]

That's a great post Ryan, the point I was trying to make in a lot more depth.

The paragraph regards Berbatov, Defoe, Cisse.. I guess that kind of brings us full circle to the impression I'm getting regarding Borini. He seems very much a team player, no fuss, no disjointedness, just there, slotting into the side with intelligent movement and an ability to be in the right place at the right time. While lacking standout qualities like the pace of Cisse or the perfect technique of Berbatov, he equally doesn't sound like he'll have to be shoehorned into the side. Perhaps I'm over enthusing because I know he's going to come in and I'm willing him to do well, but that's the impression I'm getting. He's a bit more rounded though a little less obvious to pigeon-hole by a standout quality. I think and hope he'll do well and be steady and consistent, but I get the feeling it will be without ever looking as 'spectacular' as those players can look during their purple patches.

Like you said about Yossi, Riera and co, the crux of that side was two quality players and a team with cohesion and movement (without any other real top drawer, standout performers), I hope that we're trying to get back to being a side with that kind of movement, understanding and method, because that kind of form has been too fleeting with us and we've been our own worst enemies with the signings we've identified to promote that kind of footballing philosophy. They've all failed at it (the managers). There's nothing more frustrating than watching managers buying players you know aren't going to A) improve what you have, and B) fit into the system you're trying to play. It's a shame for Carroll if he goes but if it makes us a better side with more like for likes and players of the ability, standard and suitability we're looking for, then so be it.

 

[Fox]

These days you need your wingers to score at least10 goals

Like UTD 99 team ?? They had it spot on and it was an old fashioned 4-4-2

 

[RolandG]

Rogders is studiously implementing his pass and move master plan. Jonjo seems to be enjoying the passing drills from his recent comments which bodes well for the team.

I'm just wondering what the gaffers first impressions are of Aquilani and Adam having had a look at them up close and personally.

 

[Modo]

Rogders is studiously implementing his pass and move master plan. Jonjo seems to be enjoying the passing drills from his recent comments which bodes well for the team.

I'm just wondering what the gaffers first impressions are of Aquilani and Adam having had a look at them up close and personally.

There are no question marks regarding Aquilani's ability. He would've done just fine for Kenny and would also fit Rodgers philosophy. Whether he wants to play or not, that's the question.
Will Rodgers also be willing to try and convince him to stay? (something he shouldn't have to do).

 

[RolandG]

There are no question marks regarding Aquilani's ability. He would've done just fine for Kenny and would also fit Rodgers philosophy. Whether he wants to play or not, that's the question.
Will Rodgers also be willing to try and convince him to stay? (something he shouldn't have to do).

Aquilani is staying by all accounts as per his agent and he doesn't want to cancel his contract. So he'll be here. No takers at the minute although he may still be used as a makeweight in a deal.

Like you said, its not his ability in question, rather his mentality. Is he gonna show some bottle to fight for a place in the team? Thats what I'm interested in.

 

[Modo]

So for now...YAY!

 

[Hansern]

Very good post Ryan. I think however that several of the newly promoted teams from the Championship play decent on the deck football. Swansea are obviously an exception, but Norwich, Southampton and to a degree Reading play a decent passing game of football.

Norwich was a pleasent surprise last season and I think Southampton willbe the same this season.
These 4 teams have/had youngish managers (Adkins is 47 but has been a manager for 6 odd years) that embrace another approach than the typical route 1 direct football of the lower leagues. At least thats the connection imho.

Their style of play will probably see them surviving in the Premiership next season.

 

[RolandG]

Raheem Sterling on Brendan Rodgers’ impact at Liverpool

“The training has been more enjoyable than other seasons because it has been more ball-related.
That’s definitely been a surprise — I was expecting long hill runs but it’s nice to come in and do ball work.
The manager is getting us to play football. It’s only been about a week and already you can see improvement in the movement of the ball — it’s been really good football so far.
Everyone is buzzing and they’re loving the training. All the young lads are saying they love the way things are going and we are really enjoying it.
The manager makes everyone feel welcome, even the young lads who are coming up. For him to speak to us is really good. He’s given us advice, he’s a good manager.”

 

[irishred]

Aquilani couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag and would probably suffocate in the process. There's a good player in him though that's the frustrating bit. If he was on a pay-as-you-play deal and happy enough being a squad player, i'd take that and keep him.

 

[LarryHagman]

If he was on a pay-as-you-play deal he'd be homeless.

 

[Modo]

If he was on a pay-as-you-play deal he'd be homeless.

How about Downing?

 

[LarryHagman]

How about Downing?

A mansion. Unfortunately.

 

[Modo]

A mansion. Unfortunately.

What a contrast.

 

[RolandG]

A mansion. Unfortunately.

South Fork by any chance? 😀