Sack him
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In term of trophies and what they have won, they have been...
The team that won the Champions League was actually the worst squad they have had in the Ambromvich era.. But yeh Ambramovichs cheque book helps...
Where has @doctor_mac been of late?
It has nothing to do with anything but I was just curious. Slapped it here as I didn't want to give his own thread and he's not that important. 😉
It has nothing to do with anything but I was just curious. Slapped it here as I didn't want to give his own thread and he's not that important. 😉
Presumably you're counting FA cups as equal to PLs and CLs? Because Utd have won 5 titles in the last decade to Chelsea's 3. That's the stuff people care about. That I can't even remember the winners of the cup most years tells you a lot about how valuable that is these days.
sack him, only if we are not 5th or 6th by the end of next 10 games, and lagging by just 2-3 points. I think the significant chunk of next 10 games(EPL) are winnable.
He had all the authority in the in the world about whom to sign and everything. So he cant blame everything on Studge injury, every dog of all mothers knew how injury prone Studge is. So he has absolutely no excuse about performance at least. He has been either stubborn or not able to understand what is going wrong with the current system.
But it is not an easy decision just to sack a manager, more thought should be given to whom we should replace him with. So I really hope BR doesnt fail and continues because he certainly has talent to flourish here at Anfield. In case if we sack him, we need a manager of top class, with experience who can steady our boat for next few years by finishing in top 4 for 2-3 season and then we will see.
He had all the authority in the in the world about whom to sign and everything. So he cant blame everything on Studge injury, every dog of all mothers knew how injury prone Studge is. So he has absolutely no excuse about performance at least. He has been either stubborn or not able to understand what is going wrong with the current system.
But it is not an easy decision just to sack a manager, more thought should be given to whom we should replace him with. So I really hope BR doesnt fail and continues because he certainly has talent to flourish here at Anfield. In case if we sack him, we need a manager of top class, with experience who can steady our boat for next few years by finishing in top 4 for 2-3 season and then we will see.
Sorry I really don't get this. One minute you're saying sack him if he doesn't sort it in the next 10 games, then you're saying he has the talent to flourish here. I thought "flourishing" required patience and time?
Sounds like you're expecting clear, consistent and rational thought Mark. I don't think you should hold your breath. Footy forums don't really do clarity in my experience (and practice). Stuff gets all fucked up.
As you pointed out, i am myself confused. He is talented but if he is stubborn and he is not ready to adapt or change, we will go nowhere. Actually he does indeed adapt sometimes (like the start of the last season, all the 1-0s). In this season, it hasnt worked yet. But as manager you need to be at least reactive but the greatest managers will be proactive. He had a clear idea of how it will be to lose Suarez. He had whole summer to plan everything, target the right kind if players, get some of them/lose some of them and perform and get results in this season.
So as I said, either he is stubborn or clearly out of depth that he is not able to drop under-performing players or ... or .... or..... lot of things there. So we need to set a certain criteria for the direction we want to go. So as I was just saying, if he cant finish in top 5 at the end of the season, I would sack him or if we are too too miserable after a run of 10 games (that needs to be quantified in some way or we will never know if we are improving under him or not after the loss of Suarez).
Well, you really nailed your colours to the mast there.
My biggest worry was that he would be stubborn, which was what we really didn't need after Houllier and Rafa. He seemed willing to change his opinion on players, styles etc. After the Chelsea game last year, when he was asked would be ever play that way to grind out a win, he said "never", which was pretty worrying. I think it could have just been frustration, because of how we'd brushed teams aside up until then. Either way, he needs to show he "can" play that way, I think he tried to at Madrid and it should have given him food for thought. I expected him to take a few notes from that game into the game with Chelsea, but he just seemed oblivious/ignorant to what he'd learned and again, went into the game trying to prove some kind of point about style over substance.
I don't know what to think, but I do reckon if we had bought the right striker, we'd be fairing alot better and a few players would be finding the transition into the side a bit easier. The squad is there, but he fucked up big time over Balotelli.
mrjohn is banned because he wasn't posting, he was just showing up after a defeat and being a prick, he was clearly a windup merchant who probably wasn't even a red. He'd also got away with some racial a while back too if I remember rightly, in GC. Modo got a 7 day ban the other day.
Fwibble
Ah ok - I quite like modo though. He can be a bit of a tit but generally ok.
There's a decent enough side to him, but it hasn't prevented him from acting the @rse for a while. He wasn't always like this, so hopefully it will now.
They have an horrendous injury list, though still doing well in the CL.
And people said I'm the worst poster on the site?
Jesus Christ what a rubbish thread.
Yes sack the manager who has given us the best football we have seen in 30 off years.
The man deserves a hell of a lot more than what some are suggesting.
Jesus Christ what a rubbish thread.
Yes sack the manager who has given us the best football we have seen in 30 off years.
The man deserves a hell of a lot more than what some are suggesting.
At least I was asking for you man. More than these bozos did.
Y’see, the problem here is that because we’ve got an outlandish title and first post, anyone who dares criticise Rodgers now is somehow a Newcastle fan.
Is it not alright to question the manager? Is it not ok to be unhappy with losing 3 or 4 games in a row? To be in 11th place? To discuss the signings that we spent hundreds of millions on? Cos I fucking well think it is.
Here’s my issue with Rodgers, and I’ve been pretty firm on this from day one - if you don’t believe me, here’s 3 of my posts on it from the last 20 odd months. Same issues, same point made:
http://sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/the-summer-of-skrtl.28864/page-2#post-890980
http://sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/hull-post-match-thread.40817/page-6#post-1025764
http://sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/lovrens-got-his-work-cut-out.53438/#post-1170523
Anyway, my issue with Rodgers. He hasn’t a clue how to set a team up defensively. He said this last week…
“We have conceded a large number of soft goals, there’s no argument about that, but I think it is just a lack of coaching time that is hurting us. We need to reinforce basic principles at defensive set pieces, but we know that already. We have to get better and we will be working on it."
That’s a disgrace right there. Who do you think you’re kidding Rodgers? You’ve been in the job for 3 seasons now, and the same mistakes that were evident away to West Brom in game one, are the same as the ones we saw on Saturday past.
Here’s some facts to counter your bullshit Rodgers.
Good managers, great managers fix defences first. Look at the two best teams in this league – City & Chelsea. As mentioned in those other threads above, Mancini fixed the City defence as the very first thing he did. It took him 2 years, and they barely scored a goal in that time, but they went on to win two league titles off that defence. Mourinho’s Chelsea defence of 2004/05 and the system (cos it’s all about the system, forget the tinkering of players here and there) are still in place now 10 years later. And they’ll win the league this year on the back of it. (It’s also why Arsenal never win anything by the way. They’ve got attackers as good as any other side, perhaps better, but Wenger refuses to fix the defence. He inherited that famous back 4, added Sol Campbell to it, and hasn’t bought one good defender or goalkeeper since.)
We are so far removed from having a coordinated defensive system it’s fucking frightening. A proper shape and system stands the test of time; years and years of grinding out games, winning 1-0, keeping you in the title hunt, and giving you a platform to win games from. Rodgers has not even found a way for us to hold onto a lead against QPR and Norwich with 5 minutes to go. That’s the truth, he cannot even get us into ‘last 5 minute defensive mode’. Never mind making us consistently hard to beat on an ongoing basis, he has not even shown the capacity to have us defend a lead against shite teams.
It’s not a one-off. We look like conceding against everyone. I can’t even remember who that league cup side was we played last month that waltzed through our defence, but they did, whoever the fuck they were. Norwich away in the last 3 or 4 games last year was the one I always remember. How on Earth we managed to steal a victory there I don’t know. Actually I do, luck and Suarez. Eventually our luck ran out, and so too did Suarez in the summer. And now we’re left with that same shite defence, and no goals or bite.
I watched us on Saturday just retreat and retreat defensively to a point where I was convinced we were hoping Chelsea would score so that it’d allow us the opportunity to go and chase the lead again. I do not understand why our two central defenders continually run backwards and drop deep. They must be getting instructed to do so, cos if they’re doing that of their own free will and Rodgers is allowing it to happen, then we’re beyond fucked. Someone posted a video of how Gerrard got overran in DM the other day. It’s a reasonable video, he’s diving in when he should be standing off, he’s getting easily outnumbered, and he’s too slow on the turn. But did it strike anyone else that everytime Hazard, or Fabregas, or whomever got around him that they then had a fucking acre of space to run into? Why is there such an enormous gap between Gerrard and our centre backs? Because our centre backs are running backwards that’s fucking why. At the first sign of fear, even if it’s 40-50 yards from goal, Skrtel runs backwards. He simply does not know how to defend a line. He’s been with us for 7 years now too. That is fucking frightening.
Lovren too, Agger did the same, Sakho just goes where he’s told, Toure at least understands you have to move up the pitch but he’s too fucking old. It’s not the players though. We have this debate every week about who should play CB, somebody even suggested Emre Can there last week. Christ. Every week of every year we are presiding over which of our CB’s is the least shit, and therefore they should play. Again, it’s not the players. It’s the system. If you can make a hacker like Gary Cahill fit into your system, then you can do it with Dejan Lovren & Martin Skrtel. They’re not horrendous, they’ve just never been educated. You don't just buy a defensive 'leader' and expect him to fix your woes, you've got to build the system around him and let him lead it on the pitch. 'Go be a leader' is not defensive coaching. Moyes had Phil Jagielka and Sylvain Distin – two absolute mediocrities – as the best CB pairing in the country for 2 or 3 years - because he taught them, and obviously drilled them on the training ground mercilessly. It’s not hard.
And that’s my concern. It’s not that hard to educate defenders, to build a system, and to win games regularly. It really isn’t. You need money ($80M is a decent start), time (into the third season now Brendan), and you need the capacity to coach defending (getting found wanting here I'd say).
Our Manager doesn’t know how to defend. We have a striker coming back from injury around whom our whole season seemingly hangs. We’ve, on the short term evidence anyway, replaced Suarez badly, we’ve got a dysfunctional midfield, an awful goalkeeper, and we’re on our way out of our Champions League group. The scary bit of the lot is that Rodgers doesn’t seem to have a plan to fix the structural issues. I was screaming at the TV on the weekend at Skrtel. Stop running so fucking deep. And there's Rodgers writing notes. They came back out in the second half, as they do every week, and did the same thing again. He doesn't even see it.
We have, and I mean this, the worst defence I've ever seen in my Liverpool-supporting life. Sturridge coming back will only put lipstick on this pig.
So yeah, Rodgers is on notice as far as I’m concerned.
Is it not alright to question the manager? Is it not ok to be unhappy with losing 3 or 4 games in a row? To be in 11th place? To discuss the signings that we spent hundreds of millions on? Cos I fucking well think it is.
Here’s my issue with Rodgers, and I’ve been pretty firm on this from day one - if you don’t believe me, here’s 3 of my posts on it from the last 20 odd months. Same issues, same point made:
http://sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/the-summer-of-skrtl.28864/page-2#post-890980
http://sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/hull-post-match-thread.40817/page-6#post-1025764
http://sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/lovrens-got-his-work-cut-out.53438/#post-1170523
Anyway, my issue with Rodgers. He hasn’t a clue how to set a team up defensively. He said this last week…
“We have conceded a large number of soft goals, there’s no argument about that, but I think it is just a lack of coaching time that is hurting us. We need to reinforce basic principles at defensive set pieces, but we know that already. We have to get better and we will be working on it."
That’s a disgrace right there. Who do you think you’re kidding Rodgers? You’ve been in the job for 3 seasons now, and the same mistakes that were evident away to West Brom in game one, are the same as the ones we saw on Saturday past.
Here’s some facts to counter your bullshit Rodgers.
- You’ve used 7 different centre backs in the last 18 months, and god knows how many different CB pairings.
- In the last 18 months you’ve spent close to $80M on defenders and a goalkeeper (not including the 4 or 5 loans and free transfers on defenders).
- You’ve tried 5 different defensive midfielders in that time (Gerrard, Lucas, Allen, Henderson, Can) all to minimal effect.
- Of the top 12 teams in the league this year, only Everton have conceded more goals than us.
- Of the top 15 teams in the league last year, only Newcastle conceded more than us.
Good managers, great managers fix defences first. Look at the two best teams in this league – City & Chelsea. As mentioned in those other threads above, Mancini fixed the City defence as the very first thing he did. It took him 2 years, and they barely scored a goal in that time, but they went on to win two league titles off that defence. Mourinho’s Chelsea defence of 2004/05 and the system (cos it’s all about the system, forget the tinkering of players here and there) are still in place now 10 years later. And they’ll win the league this year on the back of it. (It’s also why Arsenal never win anything by the way. They’ve got attackers as good as any other side, perhaps better, but Wenger refuses to fix the defence. He inherited that famous back 4, added Sol Campbell to it, and hasn’t bought one good defender or goalkeeper since.)
We are so far removed from having a coordinated defensive system it’s fucking frightening. A proper shape and system stands the test of time; years and years of grinding out games, winning 1-0, keeping you in the title hunt, and giving you a platform to win games from. Rodgers has not even found a way for us to hold onto a lead against QPR and Norwich with 5 minutes to go. That’s the truth, he cannot even get us into ‘last 5 minute defensive mode’. Never mind making us consistently hard to beat on an ongoing basis, he has not even shown the capacity to have us defend a lead against shite teams.
It’s not a one-off. We look like conceding against everyone. I can’t even remember who that league cup side was we played last month that waltzed through our defence, but they did, whoever the fuck they were. Norwich away in the last 3 or 4 games last year was the one I always remember. How on Earth we managed to steal a victory there I don’t know. Actually I do, luck and Suarez. Eventually our luck ran out, and so too did Suarez in the summer. And now we’re left with that same shite defence, and no goals or bite.
I watched us on Saturday just retreat and retreat defensively to a point where I was convinced we were hoping Chelsea would score so that it’d allow us the opportunity to go and chase the lead again. I do not understand why our two central defenders continually run backwards and drop deep. They must be getting instructed to do so, cos if they’re doing that of their own free will and Rodgers is allowing it to happen, then we’re beyond fucked. Someone posted a video of how Gerrard got overran in DM the other day. It’s a reasonable video, he’s diving in when he should be standing off, he’s getting easily outnumbered, and he’s too slow on the turn. But did it strike anyone else that everytime Hazard, or Fabregas, or whomever got around him that they then had a fucking acre of space to run into? Why is there such an enormous gap between Gerrard and our centre backs? Because our centre backs are running backwards that’s fucking why. At the first sign of fear, even if it’s 40-50 yards from goal, Skrtel runs backwards. He simply does not know how to defend a line. He’s been with us for 7 years now too. That is fucking frightening.
Lovren too, Agger did the same, Sakho just goes where he’s told, Toure at least understands you have to move up the pitch but he’s too fucking old. It’s not the players though. We have this debate every week about who should play CB, somebody even suggested Emre Can there last week. Christ. Every week of every year we are presiding over which of our CB’s is the least shit, and therefore they should play. Again, it’s not the players. It’s the system. If you can make a hacker like Gary Cahill fit into your system, then you can do it with Dejan Lovren & Martin Skrtel. They’re not horrendous, they’ve just never been educated. You don't just buy a defensive 'leader' and expect him to fix your woes, you've got to build the system around him and let him lead it on the pitch. 'Go be a leader' is not defensive coaching. Moyes had Phil Jagielka and Sylvain Distin – two absolute mediocrities – as the best CB pairing in the country for 2 or 3 years - because he taught them, and obviously drilled them on the training ground mercilessly. It’s not hard.
And that’s my concern. It’s not that hard to educate defenders, to build a system, and to win games regularly. It really isn’t. You need money ($80M is a decent start), time (into the third season now Brendan), and you need the capacity to coach defending (getting found wanting here I'd say).
Our Manager doesn’t know how to defend. We have a striker coming back from injury around whom our whole season seemingly hangs. We’ve, on the short term evidence anyway, replaced Suarez badly, we’ve got a dysfunctional midfield, an awful goalkeeper, and we’re on our way out of our Champions League group. The scary bit of the lot is that Rodgers doesn’t seem to have a plan to fix the structural issues. I was screaming at the TV on the weekend at Skrtel. Stop running so fucking deep. And there's Rodgers writing notes. They came back out in the second half, as they do every week, and did the same thing again. He doesn't even see it.
We have, and I mean this, the worst defence I've ever seen in my Liverpool-supporting life. Sturridge coming back will only put lipstick on this pig.
So yeah, Rodgers is on notice as far as I’m concerned.
Absolute cracking post..
Ryan I salute you... Someone else that can see clearly exactly what is happening.. Like I said earlier, the return of Sturridge will only serve to paper over the cracks.. We got away with it last season because we simply out scored the opposition.. Yes it was entertaining football.. But as it was eventually proven beyond doubt you don't win titles with a Shite defence. It was proven with Keegan's Newcastle, and again proven with us last season..
Rodgers is clueless when it comes to our defence, every game, even last season I felt we where always susceptible to conceding.. It is this reason and his failed signings why I think he could very well be on borrowed time if results do not improve..
This is the problem, and yep you've always said it and it's always nagged at me that this guy might have a fundamental problem.
And now it seems more and more likely that he does. And if he does, then well, what that really means is that we've got ourselves a talented but very raw work in progress of a coach: a Jordon Ibe or just maybe a Lazar Markovic. And the brutal truth then is that we can probably do better than that.
So, on the one hand I think it'd be almost absurd to sack him, and yet on the other logic says we probably should. It's a really odd time to support us.
I don't know who else we could get in that would come to us anyway. We need to get a coach for Rodgers. This is the issue with owners that haven't got a fucking clue about the sport they've invested in anyway
I'm not sure a coach would make a difference, because at the core of it Rodgers doesn't seem to be detailed enough in terms of how he wants his defence to set up, particularly the central defence. You'd be asking a coach to come up with a system whereas realistically it should be coming from the manager. If it's not coming from Rodgers, then it's going to be difficult for any coach to come up with something that will fit seamlessly in to the overall setup of the team.
Yup, and you'd be at odds anyway, because Rodgers' "open" system is reliant on the defense not being compact or over protected by midfield. Which we all know is our problem. He's seriously struggling with what his predecessors did, finding a balance between defense and attack.
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