Gerrard names his LFC player of the season....
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He looks alot better under Kenny anyways, he played a couple of great through balls the other night, but our game seems to suit his tendency to play it short and he looks like he's thriving under the style of play. He's also developed that knack for recognising when there's a ball to be won and danger to be snuffed out, without the need to go diving in, quite similar to Didi in a way.
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=45294.msg1331495#msg1331495 date=1305183015]
Ahem, I think it's a bit exaggerated to say that "every" one of us was labelling him as shit. I've constantly defended him. I've also pointed out his flaws a fair bit too, but there's a difference between that and "he's a cunt" ala Brendan. Quite a few posters on here have defended the lad over the last few seasons and given credit to his abilities and his good performances.
[/quote]
Agreed Mark, there has been a number of posters who've defended him(you and Wizardry at least). And why do everything need to be so black and white when it comes to Lucas? Nowadays anyone criticising Lucas is accused of having an agenda against him. I understand there needs to be some backlash as it used to be quite the opposite but imo it only does a disservice to the player himself.
I'm still of the opinion he's the kind of player who's good when the team is good but hardly ever can influence a game when things are not going our way. Not everyone has to be able either of course but for someone playing such a vital position it's still a big deficiency.
Ahem, I think it's a bit exaggerated to say that "every" one of us was labelling him as shit. I've constantly defended him. I've also pointed out his flaws a fair bit too, but there's a difference between that and "he's a cunt" ala Brendan. Quite a few posters on here have defended the lad over the last few seasons and given credit to his abilities and his good performances.
[/quote]
Agreed Mark, there has been a number of posters who've defended him(you and Wizardry at least). And why do everything need to be so black and white when it comes to Lucas? Nowadays anyone criticising Lucas is accused of having an agenda against him. I understand there needs to be some backlash as it used to be quite the opposite but imo it only does a disservice to the player himself.
I'm still of the opinion he's the kind of player who's good when the team is good but hardly ever can influence a game when things are not going our way. Not everyone has to be able either of course but for someone playing such a vital position it's still a big deficiency.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=45294.msg1331452#msg1331452 date=1305171623]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331451#msg1331451 date=1305171462]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=45294.msg1331436#msg1331436 date=1305162770]
PLEASE MODS LET BRENDAN BACK ON HERE FOR AT LEAST A DAY.
I WOULD LOVE TO SEE HIM ATTEMPT TO WORM HIS WAY OUT OF THIS.
[/quote]
Still would like to see a player with more penetration that him in the middle.
[/quote]
Oh well Dreamy, you wanted us to buy Stephen Hunt and Jimmy Bullard a year or two back.
[/quote]
Yes when we were buying the likes of Gonzales, Pennant, Zenden, Degan and the like I'd have liked either player here.
My point stands. For a CM player he doesn't pose any sort of a threat in front of goal apart from the odd goal a season.
His passing isn't anywhere near the level Alonso who got away with a poor goal return because of his passing range.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331451#msg1331451 date=1305171462]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=45294.msg1331436#msg1331436 date=1305162770]
PLEASE MODS LET BRENDAN BACK ON HERE FOR AT LEAST A DAY.
I WOULD LOVE TO SEE HIM ATTEMPT TO WORM HIS WAY OUT OF THIS.
[/quote]
Still would like to see a player with more penetration that him in the middle.
[/quote]
Oh well Dreamy, you wanted us to buy Stephen Hunt and Jimmy Bullard a year or two back.
[/quote]
Yes when we were buying the likes of Gonzales, Pennant, Zenden, Degan and the like I'd have liked either player here.
My point stands. For a CM player he doesn't pose any sort of a threat in front of goal apart from the odd goal a season.
His passing isn't anywhere near the level Alonso who got away with a poor goal return because of his passing range.
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=45294.msg1331457#msg1331457 date=1305172679]
What is penetration in the middle?
Why not at the front, side, or back?
*mind is boggling*
[/quote]
Ha I mean he doesn't hurt the opposition in the final 3rd in terms of goal or runs or defence splitting passes like Ming or Gerrard do.
For a CM I think we need more.
What is penetration in the middle?
Why not at the front, side, or back?
*mind is boggling*
[/quote]
Ha I mean he doesn't hurt the opposition in the final 3rd in terms of goal or runs or defence splitting passes like Ming or Gerrard do.
For a CM I think we need more.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331512#msg1331512 date=1305185410]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=45294.msg1331457#msg1331457 date=1305172679]
What is penetration in the middle?
Why not at the front, side, or back?
*mind is boggling*
[/quote]
Ha I mean he doesn't hurt the opposition in the final 3rd in terms of goal or runs or defence splitting passes like Ming or Gerrard do.
For a CM I think we need more.
[/quote]
Defensive midfielders aren't required to do that, in short its not his job. That's like saying you don't like Skertl because he doesn't whip in crosses.
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=45294.msg1331457#msg1331457 date=1305172679]
What is penetration in the middle?
Why not at the front, side, or back?
*mind is boggling*
[/quote]
Ha I mean he doesn't hurt the opposition in the final 3rd in terms of goal or runs or defence splitting passes like Ming or Gerrard do.
For a CM I think we need more.
[/quote]
Defensive midfielders aren't required to do that, in short its not his job. That's like saying you don't like Skertl because he doesn't whip in crosses.
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45294.msg1331515#msg1331515 date=1305185807]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331512#msg1331512 date=1305185410]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=45294.msg1331457#msg1331457 date=1305172679]
What is penetration in the middle?
Why not at the front, side, or back?
*mind is boggling*
[/quote]
Ha I mean he doesn't hurt the opposition in the final 3rd in terms of goal or runs or defence splitting passes like Ming or Gerrard do.
For a CM I think we need more.
[/quote]
Defensive midfielders aren't required to do that, in short its not his job. That's like saying you don't like Skertl because he doesn't whip in crosses.
[/quote]
Is Lucas a DM though?
I would say not but if so fair enough. I always pictured him as playing in CM rather than in front of the back four.
And for the record the best DM's we've seen in England, namely Veira, Keane and even Didi were all well known for getting goals.
Lucas is not.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331512#msg1331512 date=1305185410]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=45294.msg1331457#msg1331457 date=1305172679]
What is penetration in the middle?
Why not at the front, side, or back?
*mind is boggling*
[/quote]
Ha I mean he doesn't hurt the opposition in the final 3rd in terms of goal or runs or defence splitting passes like Ming or Gerrard do.
For a CM I think we need more.
[/quote]
Defensive midfielders aren't required to do that, in short its not his job. That's like saying you don't like Skertl because he doesn't whip in crosses.
[/quote]
Is Lucas a DM though?
I would say not but if so fair enough. I always pictured him as playing in CM rather than in front of the back four.
And for the record the best DM's we've seen in England, namely Veira, Keane and even Didi were all well known for getting goals.
Lucas is not.
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45294.msg1331515#msg1331515 date=1305185807]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331512#msg1331512 date=1305185410]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=45294.msg1331457#msg1331457 date=1305172679]
What is penetration in the middle?
Why not at the front, side, or back?
*mind is boggling*
[/quote]
Ha I mean he doesn't hurt the opposition in the final 3rd in terms of goal or runs or defence splitting passes like Ming or Gerrard do.
For a CM I think we need more.
[/quote]
Defensive midfielders aren't required to do that, in short its not his job. That's like saying you don't like Skertl because he doesn't whip in crosses.
[/quote]
And up until this season he was absoultely shit at tackling. Giving away free kicks in dangerous positions and then smirking about it.
F*ck that was annoying.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331512#msg1331512 date=1305185410]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=45294.msg1331457#msg1331457 date=1305172679]
What is penetration in the middle?
Why not at the front, side, or back?
*mind is boggling*
[/quote]
Ha I mean he doesn't hurt the opposition in the final 3rd in terms of goal or runs or defence splitting passes like Ming or Gerrard do.
For a CM I think we need more.
[/quote]
Defensive midfielders aren't required to do that, in short its not his job. That's like saying you don't like Skertl because he doesn't whip in crosses.
[/quote]
And up until this season he was absoultely shit at tackling. Giving away free kicks in dangerous positions and then smirking about it.
F*ck that was annoying.
Dont feel any guilt at all. When he was shit ( and he was for long periods shit), I called him shit. Now Im delighted to be able to give him MOM or top three places.
Sadly there are those who find themselves unable to travel that extra mile. You know what I mean. Comments like "honourable mention for Lucas" of "Lucas did ok"
Sadly there are those who find themselves unable to travel that extra mile. You know what I mean. Comments like "honourable mention for Lucas" of "Lucas did ok"
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331520#msg1331520 date=1305186095]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45294.msg1331515#msg1331515 date=1305185807]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331512#msg1331512 date=1305185410]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=45294.msg1331457#msg1331457 date=1305172679]
What is penetration in the middle?
Why not at the front, side, or back?
*mind is boggling*
[/quote]
Ha I mean he doesn't hurt the opposition in the final 3rd in terms of goal or runs or defence splitting passes like Ming or Gerrard do.
For a CM I think we need more.
[/quote]
Defensive midfielders aren't required to do that, in short its not his job. That's like saying you don't like Skertl because he doesn't whip in crosses.
[/quote]
Is Lucas a DM though?
I would say not but if so fair enough. I always pictured him as playing in CM rather than in front of the back four.
And for the record the best DM's we've seen in England, namely Veira, Keane and even Didi were all well known for getting goals.
Lucas is not.
[/quote]
Aaah yes, Dietmar Hammann. Or 'prolific Didi' as he should have been called. The absolute goalscoring machine.
He scored a grand total of 12 goals for Liverpool in 191 games.
For Man City he notched the deadly 0 goals in 54 games.
My how we've missed Didi's "penetration from CM".
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45294.msg1331515#msg1331515 date=1305185807]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331512#msg1331512 date=1305185410]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=45294.msg1331457#msg1331457 date=1305172679]
What is penetration in the middle?
Why not at the front, side, or back?
*mind is boggling*
[/quote]
Ha I mean he doesn't hurt the opposition in the final 3rd in terms of goal or runs or defence splitting passes like Ming or Gerrard do.
For a CM I think we need more.
[/quote]
Defensive midfielders aren't required to do that, in short its not his job. That's like saying you don't like Skertl because he doesn't whip in crosses.
[/quote]
Is Lucas a DM though?
I would say not but if so fair enough. I always pictured him as playing in CM rather than in front of the back four.
And for the record the best DM's we've seen in England, namely Veira, Keane and even Didi were all well known for getting goals.
Lucas is not.
[/quote]
Aaah yes, Dietmar Hammann. Or 'prolific Didi' as he should have been called. The absolute goalscoring machine.
He scored a grand total of 12 goals for Liverpool in 191 games.
For Man City he notched the deadly 0 goals in 54 games.
My how we've missed Didi's "penetration from CM".
Okay, I made my point of view quite clear on page 5. Summary: I started our liking him, but called him out for his poor performances when that was the norm for him but always held out hope on his potential.
BUT, I still am not sure if he is one of the 3 most influential players on the pitch for us in most games. He's doing a good job protecting the back 4 now, and that has definitely aided by the change in play of our team; more defensive cover from players in front of him and we are threatening the opposition all the time so there are fewer players breaking on us. However, imo, he doesn't have the influence of a SUAREZ, Meireles, Kuyt(purple patch since January) or Carragher in any game. He hasn't been making us tick and he isn't our best defensive player. I'm not inclined to put him in my top 3 performers most weeks unless it is an unusually spectacular display from him or a poor game for most of our team. It seems like generally I'm in the wrong with that viewpoint. I wouldn't give him player of the season either, for me its between Kuyt, Meireles and Suarez. Its one of the few times the general consensus has made me feel like I'm not "understanding" football I am watching.
BUT, I still am not sure if he is one of the 3 most influential players on the pitch for us in most games. He's doing a good job protecting the back 4 now, and that has definitely aided by the change in play of our team; more defensive cover from players in front of him and we are threatening the opposition all the time so there are fewer players breaking on us. However, imo, he doesn't have the influence of a SUAREZ, Meireles, Kuyt(purple patch since January) or Carragher in any game. He hasn't been making us tick and he isn't our best defensive player. I'm not inclined to put him in my top 3 performers most weeks unless it is an unusually spectacular display from him or a poor game for most of our team. It seems like generally I'm in the wrong with that viewpoint. I wouldn't give him player of the season either, for me its between Kuyt, Meireles and Suarez. Its one of the few times the general consensus has made me feel like I'm not "understanding" football I am watching.
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=45294.msg1331557#msg1331557 date=1305188457]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331520#msg1331520 date=1305186095]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45294.msg1331515#msg1331515 date=1305185807]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331512#msg1331512 date=1305185410]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=45294.msg1331457#msg1331457 date=1305172679]
What is penetration in the middle?
Why not at the front, side, or back?
*mind is boggling*
[/quote]
Ha I mean he doesn't hurt the opposition in the final 3rd in terms of goal or runs or defence splitting passes like Ming or Gerrard do.
For a CM I think we need more.
[/quote]
Defensive midfielders aren't required to do that, in short its not his job. That's like saying you don't like Skertl because he doesn't whip in crosses.
[/quote]
Is Lucas a DM though?
I would say not but if so fair enough. I always pictured him as playing in CM rather than in front of the back four.
And for the record the best DM's we've seen in England, namely Veira, Keane and even Didi were all well known for getting goals.
Lucas is not.
[/quote]
Aaah yes, Dietmar Hammann. Or 'prolific Didi' as he should have been called. The absolute goalscoring machine.
He scored a grand total of 12 goals for Liverpool in 191 games.
For Man City he notched the deadly 0 goals in 54 games.
My how we've missed Didi's "penetration from CM".
[/quote]
Don't even know why you bother anymore, it's too easy.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331520#msg1331520 date=1305186095]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=45294.msg1331515#msg1331515 date=1305185807]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=45294.msg1331512#msg1331512 date=1305185410]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=45294.msg1331457#msg1331457 date=1305172679]
What is penetration in the middle?
Why not at the front, side, or back?
*mind is boggling*
[/quote]
Ha I mean he doesn't hurt the opposition in the final 3rd in terms of goal or runs or defence splitting passes like Ming or Gerrard do.
For a CM I think we need more.
[/quote]
Defensive midfielders aren't required to do that, in short its not his job. That's like saying you don't like Skertl because he doesn't whip in crosses.
[/quote]
Is Lucas a DM though?
I would say not but if so fair enough. I always pictured him as playing in CM rather than in front of the back four.
And for the record the best DM's we've seen in England, namely Veira, Keane and even Didi were all well known for getting goals.
Lucas is not.
[/quote]
Aaah yes, Dietmar Hammann. Or 'prolific Didi' as he should have been called. The absolute goalscoring machine.
He scored a grand total of 12 goals for Liverpool in 191 games.
For Man City he notched the deadly 0 goals in 54 games.
My how we've missed Didi's "penetration from CM".
[/quote]
Don't even know why you bother anymore, it's too easy.
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=45294.msg1331530#msg1331530 date=1305186686]
Dont feel any guilt at all. When he was shit ( and he was for long periods shit), I called him shit. Now Im delighted to be able to give him MOM or top three places.
Sadly there are those who find themselves unable to travel that extra mile. You know what I mean. Comments like "honourable mention for Lucas" of "Lucas did ok"
[/quote]
Easy, tiger. I've said that once or twice. I've also said it about other players, and voted Lucas into the top three when I thought he deserved it.
Dont feel any guilt at all. When he was shit ( and he was for long periods shit), I called him shit. Now Im delighted to be able to give him MOM or top three places.
Sadly there are those who find themselves unable to travel that extra mile. You know what I mean. Comments like "honourable mention for Lucas" of "Lucas did ok"
[/quote]
Easy, tiger. I've said that once or twice. I've also said it about other players, and voted Lucas into the top three when I thought he deserved it.
I think Avvy had it pretty much spot on. The fact is, Lucas was painfully average, more often than not, for about two seasons. At the moment, he seems to have turned it around, and he's actually good, more often than not. That's only true of the latter half of this season, though.
It's not about a hate campaign, it's about calling it as you see it. The people who were saying he was great a year ago were just as wrong as those who are saying he's useless today.
It's not about a hate campaign, it's about calling it as you see it. The people who were saying he was great a year ago were just as wrong as those who are saying he's useless today.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=45294.msg1331570#msg1331570 date=1305189822]
I think Avvy had it pretty much spot on. The fact is, Lucas was painfully average, more often than not, for about two seasons. At the moment, he seems to have turned it around, and he's actually good, more often than not. That's only true of the latter half of this season, though.
It's not about a hate campaign, it's about calling it as you see it. The people who were saying he was great a year ago were just as wrong as those who are saying he's useless today.
[/quote]
whilst he may have been average in the first half of the season, it;s unfair to single him out. If anything in the first half of the season if all our players played as average of lucas we would have picked up more points. At least lucas always tried
I think Avvy had it pretty much spot on. The fact is, Lucas was painfully average, more often than not, for about two seasons. At the moment, he seems to have turned it around, and he's actually good, more often than not. That's only true of the latter half of this season, though.
It's not about a hate campaign, it's about calling it as you see it. The people who were saying he was great a year ago were just as wrong as those who are saying he's useless today.
[/quote]
whilst he may have been average in the first half of the season, it;s unfair to single him out. If anything in the first half of the season if all our players played as average of lucas we would have picked up more points. At least lucas always tried
[quote author=Avvy link=topic=45294.msg1331504#msg1331504 date=1305184824]
Exactly right.
If Lucas does have poor games in future this thread is going to resurface, which isnt fair to him at all.
Mark : fancy a trip from Runcorn this weekend? 8)
[/quote]
Avvy thanks for the offer mate, I really would and would love to meet up with everyone again but I'm El Skinto, going on holiday on Monday and my sisters wedding when I get back. Will deffo have to sort something out for next time though!
Exactly right.
If Lucas does have poor games in future this thread is going to resurface, which isnt fair to him at all.
Mark : fancy a trip from Runcorn this weekend? 8)
[/quote]
Avvy thanks for the offer mate, I really would and would love to meet up with everyone again but I'm El Skinto, going on holiday on Monday and my sisters wedding when I get back. Will deffo have to sort something out for next time though!
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=45294.msg1331576#msg1331576 date=1305190307]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=45294.msg1331570#msg1331570 date=1305189822]
I think Avvy had it pretty much spot on. The fact is, Lucas was painfully average, more often than not, for about two seasons. At the moment, he seems to have turned it around, and he's actually good, more often than not. That's only true of the latter half of this season, though.
It's not about a hate campaign, it's about calling it as you see it. The people who were saying he was great a year ago were just as wrong as those who are saying he's useless today.
[/quote]
whilst he may have been average in the first half of the season, it;s unfair to single him out. If anything in the first half of the season if all our players played as average of lucas we would have picked up more points. At least lucas always tried
[/quote]
I'm not singling him out. In fact, I've said before that he was probably one of our least shit players in the first half of the season. I think that's borne out in the ratings. That in itself is hardly worthy of praise though. Conversely, his performances in the latter half of this season are worthy of praise, but that doesn't mean we should revise the rest of his Liverpool career to match his current form.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=45294.msg1331570#msg1331570 date=1305189822]
I think Avvy had it pretty much spot on. The fact is, Lucas was painfully average, more often than not, for about two seasons. At the moment, he seems to have turned it around, and he's actually good, more often than not. That's only true of the latter half of this season, though.
It's not about a hate campaign, it's about calling it as you see it. The people who were saying he was great a year ago were just as wrong as those who are saying he's useless today.
[/quote]
whilst he may have been average in the first half of the season, it;s unfair to single him out. If anything in the first half of the season if all our players played as average of lucas we would have picked up more points. At least lucas always tried
[/quote]
I'm not singling him out. In fact, I've said before that he was probably one of our least shit players in the first half of the season. I think that's borne out in the ratings. That in itself is hardly worthy of praise though. Conversely, his performances in the latter half of this season are worthy of praise, but that doesn't mean we should revise the rest of his Liverpool career to match his current form.
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=45294.msg1331530#msg1331530 date=1305186686]
Dont feel any guilt at all. When he was shit ( and he was for long periods shit), I called him shit. Now Im delighted to be able to give him MOM or top three places.
Sadly there are those who find themselves unable to travel that extra mile. You know what I mean. Comments like "honourable mention for Lucas" of "Lucas did ok"
[/quote]
I'll roll with that. For a player to come through all the shit he's taken from the crowd and end up a better player at the end of it deserves tremendous credit.
Dont feel any guilt at all. When he was shit ( and he was for long periods shit), I called him shit. Now Im delighted to be able to give him MOM or top three places.
Sadly there are those who find themselves unable to travel that extra mile. You know what I mean. Comments like "honourable mention for Lucas" of "Lucas did ok"
[/quote]
I'll roll with that. For a player to come through all the shit he's taken from the crowd and end up a better player at the end of it deserves tremendous credit.
Ive stuck up for Lucas loads.
Hes had shit periods when i havnt wanted him in the team but ive happily named him man of the match loads and have argued that he should be given time.
He's deffo made it now though, i know that because i intentionally play him in fifa.
Long live king Lucas.
Hes had shit periods when i havnt wanted him in the team but ive happily named him man of the match loads and have argued that he should be given time.
He's deffo made it now though, i know that because i intentionally play him in fifa.
Long live king Lucas.
[quote author=Shelvey link=topic=45294.msg1331558#msg1331558 date=1305188515]
Okay, I made my point of view quite clear on page 5. Summary: I started our liking him, but called him out for his poor performances when that was the norm for him but always held out hope on his potential.
BUT, I still am not sure if he is one of the 3 most influential players on the pitch for us in most games. He's doing a good job protecting the back 4 now, and that has definitely aided by the change in play of our team; more defensive cover from players in front of him and we are threatening the opposition all the time so there are fewer players breaking on us. However, imo, he doesn't have the influence of a SUAREZ, Meireles, Kuyt(purple patch since January) or Carragher in any game. He hasn't been making us tick and he isn't our best defensive player. I'm not inclined to put him in my top 3 performers most weeks unless it is an unusually spectacular display from him or a poor game for most of our team. It seems like generally I'm in the wrong with that viewpoint. I wouldn't give him player of the season either, for me its between Kuyt, Meireles and Suarez. Its one of the few times the general consensus has made me feel like I'm not "understanding" football I am watching.
[/quote]
Disagree with that - I think we get this kind of thing backwards.
Lucas isn't a better DM now because he's getting better cover in front of him - he's a better DM now because he's got Suarez, Ming and Kuyt constantly changing positions and moving off the ball to create options. Create options and he's shown he'll spot them - left, right or through the centre, Lucas was putting the ball there for the runner against Fulham.
The reason this makes him look a better DM/CM is because the whole opposition team doesn't feel comfortable charging our end like the cavalry - they've been burnt at the other end enough to be a little cautious. There were a couple of games this season where Lucas got left to stand the trenches by everyone and he looked to be floundering. In the same games, when he had the ball, he was constantly searching for movement ahead of him and couldn't find it.
When there's no movement up front the fullbacks become more adventurous and in a few games our movement up front clearly posed no issues whatsoever so they attacked us in droves. One of the major factors in Lucas' defensive displays (and of course his attacking play) is that we now have movement up front rather than the static, one dimensional, one paced offerings we were providing in earlier games.
Okay, I made my point of view quite clear on page 5. Summary: I started our liking him, but called him out for his poor performances when that was the norm for him but always held out hope on his potential.
BUT, I still am not sure if he is one of the 3 most influential players on the pitch for us in most games. He's doing a good job protecting the back 4 now, and that has definitely aided by the change in play of our team; more defensive cover from players in front of him and we are threatening the opposition all the time so there are fewer players breaking on us. However, imo, he doesn't have the influence of a SUAREZ, Meireles, Kuyt(purple patch since January) or Carragher in any game. He hasn't been making us tick and he isn't our best defensive player. I'm not inclined to put him in my top 3 performers most weeks unless it is an unusually spectacular display from him or a poor game for most of our team. It seems like generally I'm in the wrong with that viewpoint. I wouldn't give him player of the season either, for me its between Kuyt, Meireles and Suarez. Its one of the few times the general consensus has made me feel like I'm not "understanding" football I am watching.
[/quote]
Disagree with that - I think we get this kind of thing backwards.
Lucas isn't a better DM now because he's getting better cover in front of him - he's a better DM now because he's got Suarez, Ming and Kuyt constantly changing positions and moving off the ball to create options. Create options and he's shown he'll spot them - left, right or through the centre, Lucas was putting the ball there for the runner against Fulham.
The reason this makes him look a better DM/CM is because the whole opposition team doesn't feel comfortable charging our end like the cavalry - they've been burnt at the other end enough to be a little cautious. There were a couple of games this season where Lucas got left to stand the trenches by everyone and he looked to be floundering. In the same games, when he had the ball, he was constantly searching for movement ahead of him and couldn't find it.
When there's no movement up front the fullbacks become more adventurous and in a few games our movement up front clearly posed no issues whatsoever so they attacked us in droves. One of the major factors in Lucas' defensive displays (and of course his attacking play) is that we now have movement up front rather than the static, one dimensional, one paced offerings we were providing in earlier games.
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=45294.msg1332069#msg1332069 date=1305216889]
[quote author=Shelvey link=topic=45294.msg1331558#msg1331558 date=1305188515]
Okay, I made my point of view quite clear on page 5. Summary: I started our liking him, but called him out for his poor performances when that was the norm for him but always held out hope on his potential.
BUT, I still am not sure if he is one of the 3 most influential players on the pitch for us in most games. He's doing a good job protecting the back 4 now, and that has definitely aided by the change in play of our team; more defensive cover from players in front of him and we are threatening the opposition all the time so there are fewer players breaking on us. However, imo, he doesn't have the influence of a SUAREZ, Meireles, Kuyt(purple patch since January) or Carragher in any game. He hasn't been making us tick and he isn't our best defensive player. I'm not inclined to put him in my top 3 performers most weeks unless it is an unusually spectacular display from him or a poor game for most of our team. It seems like generally I'm in the wrong with that viewpoint. I wouldn't give him player of the season either, for me its between Kuyt, Meireles and Suarez. Its one of the few times the general consensus has made me feel like I'm not "understanding" football I am watching.
[/quote]
Disagree with that - I think we get this kind of thing backwards.
Lucas isn't a better DM now because he's getting better cover in front of him - he's a better DM now because he's got Suarez, Ming and Kuyt constantly changing positions and moving off the ball to create options. Create options and he's shown he'll spot them - left, right or through the centre, Lucas was putting the ball there for the runner against Fulham.
The reason this makes him look a better DM/CM is because the whole opposition team doesn't feel comfortable charging our end like the cavalry - they've been burnt at the other end enough to be a little cautious. There were a couple of games this season where Lucas got left to stand the trenches by everyone and he looked to be floundering. In the same games, when he had the ball, he was constantly searching for movement ahead of him and couldn't find it.
When there's no movement up front the fullbacks become more adventurous and in a few games our movement up front clearly posed no issues whatsoever so they attacked us in droves. One of the major factors in Lucas' defensive displays (and of course his attacking play) is that we now have movement up front rather than the static, one dimensional, one paced offerings we were providing in earlier games.
[/quote]
Good point, well made.
[quote author=Shelvey link=topic=45294.msg1331558#msg1331558 date=1305188515]
Okay, I made my point of view quite clear on page 5. Summary: I started our liking him, but called him out for his poor performances when that was the norm for him but always held out hope on his potential.
BUT, I still am not sure if he is one of the 3 most influential players on the pitch for us in most games. He's doing a good job protecting the back 4 now, and that has definitely aided by the change in play of our team; more defensive cover from players in front of him and we are threatening the opposition all the time so there are fewer players breaking on us. However, imo, he doesn't have the influence of a SUAREZ, Meireles, Kuyt(purple patch since January) or Carragher in any game. He hasn't been making us tick and he isn't our best defensive player. I'm not inclined to put him in my top 3 performers most weeks unless it is an unusually spectacular display from him or a poor game for most of our team. It seems like generally I'm in the wrong with that viewpoint. I wouldn't give him player of the season either, for me its between Kuyt, Meireles and Suarez. Its one of the few times the general consensus has made me feel like I'm not "understanding" football I am watching.
[/quote]
Disagree with that - I think we get this kind of thing backwards.
Lucas isn't a better DM now because he's getting better cover in front of him - he's a better DM now because he's got Suarez, Ming and Kuyt constantly changing positions and moving off the ball to create options. Create options and he's shown he'll spot them - left, right or through the centre, Lucas was putting the ball there for the runner against Fulham.
The reason this makes him look a better DM/CM is because the whole opposition team doesn't feel comfortable charging our end like the cavalry - they've been burnt at the other end enough to be a little cautious. There were a couple of games this season where Lucas got left to stand the trenches by everyone and he looked to be floundering. In the same games, when he had the ball, he was constantly searching for movement ahead of him and couldn't find it.
When there's no movement up front the fullbacks become more adventurous and in a few games our movement up front clearly posed no issues whatsoever so they attacked us in droves. One of the major factors in Lucas' defensive displays (and of course his attacking play) is that we now have movement up front rather than the static, one dimensional, one paced offerings we were providing in earlier games.
[/quote]
Good point, well made.
Most of the time he was getting stick in the past it was due to the fact that he was playing shite.
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=45294.msg1332493#msg1332493 date=1305266991]
Most of the time he was getting stick in the past it was due to the fact that he was playing shite.
[/quote]
Good point, well made.
Most of the time he was getting stick in the past it was due to the fact that he was playing shite.
[/quote]
Good point, well made.
- Status
