Gerrard names his LFC player of the season....
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[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45294.msg1334874#msg1334874 date=1305654919]
Not really. Those arguments were not about whether he had played well or not.
There were many of these:
He's a cunt / will never be good enough for a title winning side
vs.
He's pretty decent / there's a very good player in there
[/quote]
This times infinity.
Not really. Those arguments were not about whether he had played well or not.
There were many of these:
He's a cunt / will never be good enough for a title winning side
vs.
He's pretty decent / there's a very good player in there
[/quote]
This times infinity.
Ryan and Mo : I think he's been good for a long while, and he's showed a lot of determination after getting a lot of crap chucked at him.
Lucas has a great attitude, and whilst I like him as a squad player..serious question now : considering some of our past incredible midfielders we've had there, do you both think we shouldn't be looking at better quality at probably the second most important position on the pitch?
To be honest, I'm getting worried about it.
Gerrard is getting on; and whilst there are some plausible points suggesting that he could be eased into a more defensive midfield position eventually (seeing as he's probably the greatest player we've ever had in Red and could play in goal if needed), Aquilani is made of toffee, and that leaves us Ming, Shelvey, Spaering and Lucas in midfield.
I dont see that winning a title if I'm being honest.
Lucas has a great attitude, and whilst I like him as a squad player..serious question now : considering some of our past incredible midfielders we've had there, do you both think we shouldn't be looking at better quality at probably the second most important position on the pitch?
To be honest, I'm getting worried about it.
Gerrard is getting on; and whilst there are some plausible points suggesting that he could be eased into a more defensive midfield position eventually (seeing as he's probably the greatest player we've ever had in Red and could play in goal if needed), Aquilani is made of toffee, and that leaves us Ming, Shelvey, Spaering and Lucas in midfield.
I dont see that winning a title if I'm being honest.
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45294.msg1334874#msg1334874 date=1305654919]
Not really. Those arguments were not about whether he had played well or not.
There were many of these:
He's a cunt / will never be good enough for a title winning side
vs.
He's pretty decent / there's a very good player in there
[/quote]
I think you're confusing 'many' with Brendan. I know he could be quite imposing, but while there were many who were critical of Lucas, there's relatively few of us who resorted to name-calling.
And the suggestion that he isn't good enough for a title-winning side certainly was, and to a large extent still is, a perfectly valid one.
Not really. Those arguments were not about whether he had played well or not.
There were many of these:
He's a cunt / will never be good enough for a title winning side
vs.
He's pretty decent / there's a very good player in there
[/quote]
I think you're confusing 'many' with Brendan. I know he could be quite imposing, but while there were many who were critical of Lucas, there's relatively few of us who resorted to name-calling.
And the suggestion that he isn't good enough for a title-winning side certainly was, and to a large extent still is, a perfectly valid one.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=45294.msg1335780#msg1335780 date=1305795799]
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45294.msg1334874#msg1334874 date=1305654919]
Not really. Those arguments were not about whether he had played well or not.
There were many of these:
He's a cunt / will never be good enough for a title winning side
vs.
He's pretty decent / there's a very good player in there
[/quote]
I think you're confusing 'many' with Brendan. I know he could be quite imposing, but while there were many who were critical of Lucas, there's relatively few of us who resorted to name-calling.
And the suggestion that he isn't good enough for a title-winning side certainly was, and to a large extent still is, a perfectly valid one.
[/quote]
Agreed in both respects. I'd be quite happy to keep Lucas as a squaddie, but (and I know there are some on here who disagree with me about this) I can't see him being/becoming good enough for a regular first team spot if we're serious about getting back to the top.
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45294.msg1334874#msg1334874 date=1305654919]
Not really. Those arguments were not about whether he had played well or not.
There were many of these:
He's a cunt / will never be good enough for a title winning side
vs.
He's pretty decent / there's a very good player in there
[/quote]
I think you're confusing 'many' with Brendan. I know he could be quite imposing, but while there were many who were critical of Lucas, there's relatively few of us who resorted to name-calling.
And the suggestion that he isn't good enough for a title-winning side certainly was, and to a large extent still is, a perfectly valid one.
[/quote]
Agreed in both respects. I'd be quite happy to keep Lucas as a squaddie, but (and I know there are some on here who disagree with me about this) I can't see him being/becoming good enough for a regular first team spot if we're serious about getting back to the top.
I honestly dont know if Lucas is good enough to be part of a title winning side and I really doubt if anyone else on here does either.
The facts are that the title of this thread is about Stevie picking Lucas as our player of the season. Johnson has also selected his as player of the season. Im inclined to have more belief in the views of those two than anyone on here
The facts are that the title of this thread is about Stevie picking Lucas as our player of the season. Johnson has also selected his as player of the season. Im inclined to have more belief in the views of those two than anyone on here
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=45294.msg1335808#msg1335808 date=1305798341]
I honestly dont know if Lucas is good enough to be part of a title winning side and I really doubt if anyone else on here does either.
The facts are that the title of this thread is about Stevie picking Lucas as our player of the season. Johnson has also selected his as player of the season. Im inclined to have more belief in the views of those two than anyone on here
[/quote]
I like Glen Johnson, but the day I start deferring to his wisdom is the day I begin seriously exploring the prospect of euthanasia.
I honestly dont know if Lucas is good enough to be part of a title winning side and I really doubt if anyone else on here does either.
The facts are that the title of this thread is about Stevie picking Lucas as our player of the season. Johnson has also selected his as player of the season. Im inclined to have more belief in the views of those two than anyone on here
[/quote]
I like Glen Johnson, but the day I start deferring to his wisdom is the day I begin seriously exploring the prospect of euthanasia.
Del - using Brendan as the scapegoat is the easy way out. 99% of members on this forum heaped endless horrible abuse on Lucas. As mamma Mia pointed out it was all to do with him being one of the worst cunts in our history and how he'd never make it.
Perhaps you'd like me to pull up some of the 5000 threads?
Perhaps you'd like me to pull up some of the 5000 threads?
Feel free mate. Have you noticed Lucas being called a cunt since Brendan left? Name-calling was his speciality, and was not prevalent amongst other posters, if memory serves.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=45294.msg1335822#msg1335822 date=1305800431]
Feel free mate. Have you noticed Lucas being called a cunt since Brendan left? Name-calling was his speciality, and was not prevalent amongst other posters, if memory serves.
[/quote]*slides post about Holloway behind his back and nods next to Del*
Feel free mate. Have you noticed Lucas being called a cunt since Brendan left? Name-calling was his speciality, and was not prevalent amongst other posters, if memory serves.
[/quote]*slides post about Holloway behind his back and nods next to Del*
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=45294.msg1335817#msg1335817 date=1305799731]
Del - using Brendan as the scapegoat is the easy way out. 99% of members on this forum heaped endless horrible abuse on Lucas. As mamma Mia pointed out it was all to do with him being one of the worst cunts in our history and how he'd never make it.
Perhaps you'd like me to pull up some of the 5000 threads?
[/quote]
Because Ryan he was absolute shat very very often for a very very long time, now however he is pretty steady and therefore not deserving of abuse. It became an issue with Brendan but then Brendan had issues with everything and everyone.
Lucas also suffered badly from the fact that he was replacing two players who were not absolute shat in Alonso and Mascherano, a centre midfield pairing that was basically one of the best in the world, Lucas was always going to be up against it.
Lets not get carried away about him though, he has played quite well this season and been consistent but he is not top drawer he is just...pretty OK.... He deserves Kudos for taking the stick and coming out fighting, whether he will be a first choice player in future we will see. He certainly seems determined enough.
Del - using Brendan as the scapegoat is the easy way out. 99% of members on this forum heaped endless horrible abuse on Lucas. As mamma Mia pointed out it was all to do with him being one of the worst cunts in our history and how he'd never make it.
Perhaps you'd like me to pull up some of the 5000 threads?
[/quote]
Because Ryan he was absolute shat very very often for a very very long time, now however he is pretty steady and therefore not deserving of abuse. It became an issue with Brendan but then Brendan had issues with everything and everyone.
Lucas also suffered badly from the fact that he was replacing two players who were not absolute shat in Alonso and Mascherano, a centre midfield pairing that was basically one of the best in the world, Lucas was always going to be up against it.
Lets not get carried away about him though, he has played quite well this season and been consistent but he is not top drawer he is just...pretty OK.... He deserves Kudos for taking the stick and coming out fighting, whether he will be a first choice player in future we will see. He certainly seems determined enough.
T
the_khl
Guest
Lucas has improved no-end this Season and as such is a fair bet as Player of the Year.
That said I'm still not convinced he's the long-term solution in central. I do not mind him as a squadie one bit but I'm not sure he'd be good enough to hold down a spot if I were to pick a XI to bring home no. 19.
Kuyt, Raul and Suarez is upthere as well.
That said I'm still not convinced he's the long-term solution in central. I do not mind him as a squadie one bit but I'm not sure he'd be good enough to hold down a spot if I were to pick a XI to bring home no. 19.
Kuyt, Raul and Suarez is upthere as well.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=45294.msg1335780#msg1335780 date=1305795799]
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45294.msg1334874#msg1334874 date=1305654919]
Not really. Those arguments were not about whether he had played well or not.
There were many of these:
He's a cunt / will never be good enough for a title winning side
vs.
He's pretty decent / there's a very good player in there
[/quote]
I think you're confusing 'many' with Brendan. I know he could be quite imposing, but while there were many who were critical of Lucas, there's relatively few of us who resorted to name-calling.
And the suggestion that he isn't good enough for a title-winning side certainly was, and to a large extent still is, a perfectly valid one.
[/quote]
Nah, I'm not buying that. I was one of those who always said that Lucas may not be a world beater, but his incompetence is grossly exagerated on here.
I know those debates happened a lot, because they frustrated the hell out of me.
If the stance of this site was 'Lucas is potentially good, but we need better for the 1st team', then I may have mildy disagreed based on my view of his potential, but it would have been a non-issue.
That's not what happened. I actually don't care that much, but this revisionist nonsense on forums irks me.
It happened on Koptalk with Carra and Dirk, and it happened on SCM with Lucas.
There are obviously sensible posters like JJ, Keni, and you, who may have just expresses doubt over Lucas.
However there were loads who simply went with the Brendan point of view.
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45294.msg1334874#msg1334874 date=1305654919]
Not really. Those arguments were not about whether he had played well or not.
There were many of these:
He's a cunt / will never be good enough for a title winning side
vs.
He's pretty decent / there's a very good player in there
[/quote]
I think you're confusing 'many' with Brendan. I know he could be quite imposing, but while there were many who were critical of Lucas, there's relatively few of us who resorted to name-calling.
And the suggestion that he isn't good enough for a title-winning side certainly was, and to a large extent still is, a perfectly valid one.
[/quote]
Nah, I'm not buying that. I was one of those who always said that Lucas may not be a world beater, but his incompetence is grossly exagerated on here.
I know those debates happened a lot, because they frustrated the hell out of me.
If the stance of this site was 'Lucas is potentially good, but we need better for the 1st team', then I may have mildy disagreed based on my view of his potential, but it would have been a non-issue.
That's not what happened. I actually don't care that much, but this revisionist nonsense on forums irks me.
It happened on Koptalk with Carra and Dirk, and it happened on SCM with Lucas.
There are obviously sensible posters like JJ, Keni, and you, who may have just expresses doubt over Lucas.
However there were loads who simply went with the Brendan point of view.
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45294.msg1335906#msg1335906 date=1305809469]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=45294.msg1335780#msg1335780 date=1305795799]
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45294.msg1334874#msg1334874 date=1305654919]
Not really. Those arguments were not about whether he had played well or not.
There were many of these:
He's a cunt / will never be good enough for a title winning side
vs.
He's pretty decent / there's a very good player in there
[/quote]
I think you're confusing 'many' with Brendan. I know he could be quite imposing, but while there were many who were critical of Lucas, there's relatively few of us who resorted to name-calling.
And the suggestion that he isn't good enough for a title-winning side certainly was, and to a large extent still is, a perfectly valid one.
[/quote]
Nah, I'm not buying that. I was one of those who always said that Lucas may not be a world beater, but his incompetence is grossly exagerated on here.
I know those debates happened a lot, because they frustrated the hell out of me.
If the stance of this site was 'Lucas is potentially good, but we need better for the 1st team', then I may have mildy disagreed based on my view of his potential, but it would have been a non-issue.
That's not what happened. I actually don't care that much, but this revisionist nonsense on forums irks me.
It happened on Koptalk with Carra and Dirk, and it happened on SCM with Lucas.
There are obviously sensible posters like JJ, Keni, and you, who may have just expresses doubt over Lucas.
However there were loads who simply went with the Brendan point of view.
[/quote]
The thing is, the way you worded your first post was as if calling him a cunt and saying he will never be good enough for us are in some way similar, or equally deserving of disdain. I've said he'll never be good enough for us before, but I've never called him a cunt. I'm happy to offer an opinion on someone, but I think name calling is unnecessary (bar the odd rare exception). What's more, beyond Brendan, I don't think there were many others who lowered themselves to that. I had a brief search through a couple of old Lucas threads and I couldn't find anyone except Brendan being genuinely abusive towards him.
And while I accept that things can sometimes be revised backwards, the same can be said of the suggestion that there's been some sort of hate campaign against him. For instance, Ryan's suggestion that "99% of members on this forum heaped endless horrible abuse on Lucas", is a gross exaggeration. It would be more accurate to say that 99% of this forum didn't think he was good enough, and made their feelings known. I acknowledge that there are those who are easily swayed by the likes of Brendan, or perhaps became blinkered by their own desire to be proved right. I don't think arrogance or ignorance are the same as abuse, though.
You would have thought that if 99% of the forum were subjecting Lucas to such endless abuse, then it might be easier to find evidence of it.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=45294.msg1335780#msg1335780 date=1305795799]
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=45294.msg1334874#msg1334874 date=1305654919]
Not really. Those arguments were not about whether he had played well or not.
There were many of these:
He's a cunt / will never be good enough for a title winning side
vs.
He's pretty decent / there's a very good player in there
[/quote]
I think you're confusing 'many' with Brendan. I know he could be quite imposing, but while there were many who were critical of Lucas, there's relatively few of us who resorted to name-calling.
And the suggestion that he isn't good enough for a title-winning side certainly was, and to a large extent still is, a perfectly valid one.
[/quote]
Nah, I'm not buying that. I was one of those who always said that Lucas may not be a world beater, but his incompetence is grossly exagerated on here.
I know those debates happened a lot, because they frustrated the hell out of me.
If the stance of this site was 'Lucas is potentially good, but we need better for the 1st team', then I may have mildy disagreed based on my view of his potential, but it would have been a non-issue.
That's not what happened. I actually don't care that much, but this revisionist nonsense on forums irks me.
It happened on Koptalk with Carra and Dirk, and it happened on SCM with Lucas.
There are obviously sensible posters like JJ, Keni, and you, who may have just expresses doubt over Lucas.
However there were loads who simply went with the Brendan point of view.
[/quote]
The thing is, the way you worded your first post was as if calling him a cunt and saying he will never be good enough for us are in some way similar, or equally deserving of disdain. I've said he'll never be good enough for us before, but I've never called him a cunt. I'm happy to offer an opinion on someone, but I think name calling is unnecessary (bar the odd rare exception). What's more, beyond Brendan, I don't think there were many others who lowered themselves to that. I had a brief search through a couple of old Lucas threads and I couldn't find anyone except Brendan being genuinely abusive towards him.
And while I accept that things can sometimes be revised backwards, the same can be said of the suggestion that there's been some sort of hate campaign against him. For instance, Ryan's suggestion that "99% of members on this forum heaped endless horrible abuse on Lucas", is a gross exaggeration. It would be more accurate to say that 99% of this forum didn't think he was good enough, and made their feelings known. I acknowledge that there are those who are easily swayed by the likes of Brendan, or perhaps became blinkered by their own desire to be proved right. I don't think arrogance or ignorance are the same as abuse, though.
You would have thought that if 99% of the forum were subjecting Lucas to such endless abuse, then it might be easier to find evidence of it.
Gotcha. I didn't mean to equate those arguments, just to show two of the common ones. ie:
1. He's a cunt vs He's not
2. He'll never be good enough vs He probably will, and he's not far from it already
As for the abuse Del, I think the answer, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. Sure, not 99%, but there were loads who gave him stick. In fact, not just him directly... Rafa took abuse for playing him, as did Roy.
Since Kenny has come in and stuck with him, and the boy has continued to improve, opinions are softening. Let's not pretend that all we've argued about for years is 'just how good he is or could be'.
1. He's a cunt vs He's not
2. He'll never be good enough vs He probably will, and he's not far from it already
As for the abuse Del, I think the answer, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. Sure, not 99%, but there were loads who gave him stick. In fact, not just him directly... Rafa took abuse for playing him, as did Roy.
Since Kenny has come in and stuck with him, and the boy has continued to improve, opinions are softening. Let's not pretend that all we've argued about for years is 'just how good he is or could be'.
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