Pre Match - Spurs (A) - Sat 17:30

[Beamrider]

Somehow this managed to be worse than I expected.
The things that stick out:

1. It’s too rushed. In part, that’s because it’s an easy decision, but England acts too quickly. The restart is too quick as well.
2. They drew a line, chose not to show it on TV. Then chose not to show it later as they normally do because they knew they fucked up.
3. ‘Check complete’ is the wrong language. VAR should say what they believe the correct decision is - goal, no goal, red card, no red card. The ref should be saying “to confirm, no goal” before restarting. We should have asked for the audio on Jones too.
4. I agree on the chumminess. Very different in cricket. The audio is played live, so they’re more professional. 3rd umpire also tends to encourage the on-field guys, especially when they get it right (which is usually the case).
5. The real kicker for me is that there’s no protocol for if there is an error of communication or another angle that might alter the impulsive initial decision. They didn’t even contemplate that they might get it wrong. Colossal arrogance.

 

[carlv]

This is from the Athletic:

In the 34th minute, Salah races onto a ball from a throw-in and brings it under control under pressure from Tottenham defender Micky van de Ven
Assistant referee 1: “All good, both holding. Both holding.
Referee: Yeah, leave it alone.
Salah plays a pass to Diaz
Assistant referee 1: Waiting. Delaying, delaying.

VAR: Possible offside, Diaz.

Diaz scores and wheels away to celebrate
Assistant referee 2: Give it.
Assistant referee 1: Coming back for the offside, mate.

Why is VAR even commenting in open play it may be offside?

 

[Markeh]

Thinking about the whole thing some more, decision fatigue and complacency must kick after a while and it might explain in part why the most ‘junior’ guy in a footballing sense also comes across as the most bright in the room.

These officials are going through this countless times, it must get tedious, you must switch off a bit (especially after long travel). If the junior guy is actually a lead engineer on the project then that’ll explain why he’s so switched on and invested when others start to dither.

I might be over analysing there but are repetitive marginal decisions really the forte of humans or would a semi automated system be preferable? It’s obvious, bring it in mid season please.

 

[Richey]

You can easily imagine that the referees routinely ignore the tech guys, can't you?

'We're the referees, we know the rules, we are the important ones, you don't know, you just draw the lines, NO of course we can't stop the game, idiot'.

You'd hope this incident might change the arrogance of the referees, that we might even get a bit more openness from them, but sadly I think that's unlikely. We'll get vague assurances that things have been done to improve the processes and that will be that.

 

[binomial]

This is from the Athletic:

In the 34th minute, Salah races onto a ball from a throw-in and brings it under control under pressure from Tottenham defender Micky van de Ven
Assistant referee 1: “All good, both holding. Both holding.
Referee: Yeah, leave it alone.
Salah plays a pass to Diaz
Assistant referee 1: Waiting. Delaying, delaying.

VAR: Possible offside, Diaz.

Diaz scores and wheels away to celebrate
Assistant referee 2: Give it.
Assistant referee 1: Coming back for the offside, mate.

Why is VAR even commenting in open play it may be offside?

I found the timing of that VAR call very odd myself.....it's just all a complete an utter shambles how 1 simple decision which takes seconds to reach a conclusion can result is all this hiccup.

 

[737Max]

Jason Burt in the telegraph hit the nail on the head.

It's just so unprofessional, the whole protocol.

With the Daz and the "mate" etc.

You would not get that in any other sport.

Because they are all mates, they're all a massive pact whether it was the drunken bonding session in Indonesia or Mike Dean admitting he didn't want to give the referee grief by sending him over to the pitchside monitor to review a red card. They're just all matey mate mates

 

[Markeh]

You can easily imagine that the referees routinely ignore the tech guys, can't you?

'We're the referees, we know the rules, we are the important ones, you don't know, you just draw the lines, NO of course we can't stop the game, idiot'.

You'd hope this incident might change the arrogance of the referees, that we might even get a bit more openness from them, but sadly I think that's unlikely. We'll get vague assurances that things have been done to improve the processes and that will be that.

I’m having ‘Nam style flashbacks from this guys plight, it happens everywhere

 

[Markeh]

Because they are all mates, they're all a massive pact whether it was the drunken bonding session in Indonesia or Mike Dean admitting he didn't want to give the referee grief by sending him over to the pitchside monitor to review a red card. They're just all matey mate mates

Mike Dean in my eyes caused more damage than this has. It’s an admission that they’re fallible, mistakes have already been made and will continue to be made despite any protocol improvements.

 

[Hansern]

PGMOL appointed Taylor to ref our next game, so thats us fucked again.

 

[Beamrider]

This is from the Athletic:

In the 34th minute, Salah races onto a ball from a throw-in and brings it under control under pressure from Tottenham defender Micky van de Ven
Assistant referee 1: “All good, both holding. Both holding.
Referee: Yeah, leave it alone.
Salah plays a pass to Diaz
Assistant referee 1: Waiting. Delaying, delaying.

VAR: Possible offside, Diaz.

Diaz scores and wheels away to celebrate
Assistant referee 2: Give it.
Assistant referee 1: Coming back for the offside, mate.

Why is VAR even commenting in open play it may be offside?

I think they’ve said that the ref doesn’t hear the VAR audio when the ball is in play. I think that comment is a signal to their tech guys to initiate a check in case Diaz scores, presumably to speed things up.
That said, I’m not sure how helpful it is for the ref to be hearing his assistants all the time. I imagine each team of officials has their own way of working but I personally would struggle to concentrate with all that going on in my earpiece. If an assistant doesn’t need to raise his/her flag then I don’t need them talking to me either.

 

[keniget]

LFC fans have gone full bluemoon!

I guess it's hard not to wonder this series of events but the main thing that sticks out is how amateurish parts of the sport are considering it's a multi-billion pound enterprise.

As has already been said, the processes should be so well documented, rehearsed and understood that even a chimp could follow them.

Imagine fucks up of this magnitude happening regularly in any other industry - air traffic control for example! It's just because it's football and despite the insane amount of money and media attention, it's still not regulated in any meaningful way.

 

[bluebell]

I've heard people say separate VAR from PGMOL, get rid of PGMOL, but are they good suggestions? imho no, i can't see how that improves standards

No one's actually pointing fingers at the PL (ie our clubs) for not pressuring the PGMOL to raise standards. They along the PGMOL decided against Semi-Automated Offside tech use. Despite so many wrongful decisions I don't think the PL has come out and asked for more accountability from the officials. Italy is a far far poorer league, but one of the first to use tech. I remember when VAR was first being used, rest of Europe used it one particular way we used it another.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

So basically ... what on earth can we do ?

 

[keniget]

VAR is not the problem. It's a people and process issue.

 

[binomial]

Except the way we're using it in this country it has been a problem because we're using it to re-referee games and take away the authority from the on field referee.

Either go automated and use it for offsides only or fuck it off.

 

[Markeh]

I've heard people say separate VAR from PGMOL, get rid of PGMOL, but are they good suggestions? imho no, i can't see how that improves standards

No one's actually pointing fingers at the PL (ie our clubs) for not pressuring the PGMOL to raise standards. They along the PGMOL decided against Semi-Automated Offside tech use. Despite so many wrongful decisions I don't think the PL has come out and asked for more accountability from the officials. Italy is a far far poorer league, but one of the first to use tech. I remember when VAR was first being used, rest of Europe used it one particular way we used it another.

I’m guessing one advantage is to remove the Mike Dean factor from VAR where they’re making decisions based on the feelings of the on field ref. VAR would function better as a black box as far as the on field ref is concerned, it gets the video feed and spits out a decision for the ref.

 

[Woland]

 

[Modo]

LFC fans have gone full bluemoon!

I guess it's hard not to wonder this series of events but the main thing that sticks out is how amateurish parts of the sport are considering it's a multi-billion pound enterprise.

As has already been said, the processes should be so well documented, rehearsed and understood that even a chimp could follow them.

Imagine fucks up of this magnitude happening regularly in any other industry - air traffic control for example! It's just because it's football and despite the insane amount of money and media attention, it's still not regulated in any meaningful way.

I get what you're saying, but no one dies if VAR makes a mistake.

 

[Fabio]

I get what you're saying, but no one dies if VAR makes a mistake.

True, it's unlikely a fatality occurs. But whats to say one day a disgruntled fan doesn't attack a ref that wronged his team? If errors like this aren't caught early and risk assessed out of the process ,then it's more likely to happen again and again.

Also, a mistake like this could cost a team millions in revenue from missing out on the league/CL/Europa/Conference or cause relegation. It absolutely should get stamped out and acted upon quickly solely down to the fact it coulg cause a club to fold and go under due to lost revenue

 

[Modo]

True, it's unlikely a fatality occurs. But whats to say one day a disgruntled fan doesn't attack a ref that wronged his team? If errors like this aren't caught early and risk assessed out of the process ,then it's more likely to happen again and again.

Also, a mistake like this could cost a team millions in revenue from missing out on the league/CL/Europa/Conference or cause relegation. It absolutely should get stamped out and acted upon quickly solely down to the fact it coulg cause a club to fold and go under due to lost revenue

I agree, I'm just saying that there's more risk involved when you're a air traffic controller.

[Henry Winter] The worst part was not delaying the restart as called by Oli Kohout, VAR Hub Ops executive, who spent four years at Hawkeye, has a degree in sports technology from Loughborough & seemed to be the only one doing his job properly.

This guy should get a promotion. The only one actively trying to stop the game.

Edit, no actually it's this guy:

Revealed: The voice of reason in Liverpool Var madness is a Dutch computer engineer

Exclusive: Mo Abby would not normally speak during Var discussions but realised the severity of the error and called for a delay
BySam Wallace, CHIEF FOOTBALL WRITER

3 October 2023 • 9:02pm
Var operator who can be heard on PGMOL’s audio feed trying to stop the calamitous mistake that saw Luis Diaz’s goal disallowed on Saturday is a Dutch graduate who would ordinarily not even speak during conversations between on-field officials and those in the Var suite.

He is Mo Abby, 30, the advanced systems lead at Hawk-Eye Innovations, the technology partners of the referees’ organisation PGMOL, who can be heard asking the confused Var Darren England and his assistant Dan Cook whether they are “happy” with the outcome.

Ordinarily the replay operator, Abby’s role as it is described during matchday, would not speak in discussions between officials – however on this occasion he recognises the severity of the situation and says that it is the advice of “Oli” that the game is delayed. The “Oli” in question is Oli Kohout, Abby’s boss and the Var hub operations executive for PGMOL.

Unfortunately for England and Cook, they ignore the advice from Abby. They were likely to be surprised to hear him speaking on the live-feed although none of the Var officials seem able to react quickly enough.

Abby says on his LinkedIn page that he “majored” in computer system engineering, graduating from the University of Westminster in 2016. He has been at Hawk-Eye for five years.

PGMOL said in a statement: “PGMOL can confirm that we have carried out a review into the circumstances which led to the Luis Diaz goal being incorrectly disallowed for offside in the Premier League match between Tottenham Hotspur FC and Liverpool FC.

“We recognise standards fell short of expectations and acknowledged the error to Liverpool immediately after the conclusion of the fixture.

“A detailed report, including the key learnings and immediate actions taken, alongside the audio between the on-field officials and VAR team has been submitted to the Premier League, who have shared it with Liverpool FC and subsequently all other Premier League Clubs.

 

[aquaman4]

Get Oli on the wheel and no more wrong decisions.

 

[Woland]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cx-Q0VmsNk7/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Outside of them just promising to do better next time, are there any actual realistic outcomes from this that will benefit us for the lost points? I'm guessing there isn't.

 

[Woland]

No, but it's ok we'll just win the league by five points instead of eight

 

[Markeh]

What did Sheffield United get the time West Ham stayed up thanks to Tevez and Mascherano? A load of money many years later?

That’s probably realistic if miss out on the league by a point

 

[Irishanfield]

What did Sheffield United get the time West Ham stayed up thanks to Tevez and Mascherano? A load of money many years later?

That’s probably realistic if miss out on the league by a point

Wont get a penny because you can't prove that we would have won the game if the goal had stood

 

[Markeh]

Wont get a penny because you can't prove that we would have won the game if the goal had stood

Yea maybe but can you really prove Tevez and Mascherano improved West Ham? That wasn’t the issue though, it was third party ownership rules being broken. Just like we cant prove we would have won the league but we can prove a law of the game was misapplied or whatever to our detriment.

 

[Woland]

The thing is, us VAR sceptics have been told for years to park our manifold concerns with the system in the name of objectivity. So what do we get? A clear and obvious error in not sending off Jones that over half the football world thinks was a yellow. Yeah clear and fucking obvious... And this utter mess with the Diaz goal. In the space of ten minutes. With idiots who are on the payroll of the competition. Get fucked. It's nowhere close to objective, it makes cheating possible in brand new ways, and it ruins the match day experience. Rip it all out.

 

[Hansern]

VAR is not the problem. It's a people and process issue.

VAR becomes part of the problem when you have leagues like the Premier league that only implement parts of the system.
It all leads back to the people though. The people in charge and the people operating it.

If they had implemented the semi automatic offside system and showed the results on the screen then none of this happens.

 

[Farkmaster]

VAR becomes part of the problem when you have leagues like the Premier league that only implement parts of the system.
It all leads back to the people though. The people in charge and the people operating it.

If they had implemented the semi automatic offside system and showed the results on the screen then none of this happens.

Something shit will happen when you have people who don't know how to set up a new process at work. I don't care what it is.

I am not exaggerating when I say the process by which I make three boules of pain au levain every two weeks is significantly more developed than what I heard on that tape, and has failsafes to accommodate the constant interruptions of my children.