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The defence

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rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member


I’m worried about our defending as a team - I think some problems have been building up and Jurgen couldn’t fully address them last season because of the relentless pursuit of City and the quadruple. Working on the fundamentals for the long-term and pursuing results here and now can often be at odds and it looks like some of these unaddressed flaws have become somewhat ingrained and thus harder to fix.

One fundamental problem is that Alisson’s and Virgil’s excellence in the last line of defence has made our midfielders a bit lazy or skewed the balance toward pushing too many men forward recklessly and relying on the individual brilliance at the back to rescue us time and time again - which means Alli and Virge have to produce 9/10 or 10/10 performances consistently just to keep opponents at bay - this is not sustainable. Take our midfield and put them in front of Maguire and De Gea and so many issues will start to become apparent.

The 2nd and related problem is that we simply don’t have a reliable ball-winner in midfield besides Fabinho - so when he’s off his game or if the opposition can figure out how to bypass him, we’re invariably exposed. And 3rd, unfortunately it has to be said, is Trent - in the type of game where one mistake can be decisive, he is often the weak link. I’m pretty sure managers like Rafa or Mourinho would not trust him to play at RB in certain games and would have instead opted for another system where he has fewer defensive responsibilities.

I’m sure Klopp sees all this, but figuring out the solution while the season is under way won’t be easy. This is something that won’t be solved with one player purchase or a tactical switch - these things are more fundamental and will require lots of work on several fronts to be put right.
 
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End of an era. It's all falling apart bit by bit.

The world is ending soon too, so might as well do it now - goodbye Klopp and 6CM. It was nice knowing you all.
 
I really didn't think Rurik was right about not having ' a reliable ball-winner in midfield ' however checking a few facts and it's clear that's the case with Fabs at PL #62 our highest rated midfielder. Hendo doesn't even make the Top 100.

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Hendo's age seems to be catching up with him & is likely a factor in that regard. We have missed the boat on Rice, who would have been the best fit perhaps, and Bissouma. I don't know much about Norgaard but McGinn is often mentioned and should definitely be within our budget.
 
Counter attacks are our weakness and where I feel the likes of City excel at and gives them the advantage over us.

We push too many bodies forward than needed because we don't have that spark in midfield.....at no point should Fab and the 2 CB's be left exposed.

Saw it against Palace a few times and it was enough to be punished....Robbo and especially Trent Harvey and Milner were playing so high....none of these really have the recovery to get back over a certain distance.
 
Remember that title season, when we won 26 out of 27 games before Covid. It's interesting to think that we pre-Thiago. Klopp build a team around a midfield that was packed with hard work, intensity and physicality. The brexit midfield was there for a reason, it allowed the front 3 all the freedom in the world and protected the central defense when our most creative players, our full backs, went forward. Our midfield for most of those games was Henderson, Fabinho, Wijnaldum.

I hate to say it, but moving away from that type of midfield seems to have opened us up quite a bit.

This is compounded by Henderson's decline, and Fabinho playing like he's having a kickaround on the beach.
 
To draw a comparison with rugby our defence is like a back line that only functions well operating behind a dominant forward pack. Our defenders are asked to take risks in terms of positioning and passing that most teams don't even consider. They can only do that when we are dominating in midfield in terms of possession and pressing the opposition. Our midfield is not dominating the way it used to, Henderson has lost a yard at least and seems to be in a serious decline while Fabinho has lost form completely over the last 6 months.

Last year we looked shaky against sides that could either outwork us or break our press in midfield. This season outworking our midfield has looked far too easy so far. Henderson is the real worry, players of his style go downhill rapidly once they start to slow physically.
 
I really didn't think Rurik was right about not having ' a reliable ball-winner in midfield ' however checking a few facts and it's clear that's the case with Fabs at PL #62 our highest rated midfielder. Hendo doesn't even make the Top 100.

Screenshot-2022-08-17-at-14-20-55.png


Screenshot-2022-08-17-at-14-23-09.png


Hendo's age seems to be catching up with him & is likely a factor in that regard. We have missed the boat on Rice, who would have been the best fit perhaps, and Bissouma. I don't know much about Norgaard but McGinn is often mentioned and should definitely be within our budget.

Those Hendo stats are even worse when you adjust them for mins played. Hendo played about 2.5 times more mins than Keita and ended up winning the ball only marginally more often.
 
VVD isn't the player he was. I think it's that simple. Remember when he hadn't been beaten in a dual in over a season or something? It's every game now.
Every game? You've based this off 1 game where he gave away a pen and 1 game where he got caught playing Zaha on.

Because as far as last season goes he was still 1 of the best around...ever present as we ended up with the joint best defensive record with 20 clean sheets?
 
Remember that title season, when we won 26 out of 27 games before Covid. It's interesting to think that we pre-Thiago. Klopp build a team around a midfield that was packed with hard work, intensity and physicality. The brexit midfield was there for a reason, it allowed the front 3 all the freedom in the world and protected the central defense when our most creative players, our full backs, went forward. Our midfield for most of those games was Henderson, Fabinho, Wijnaldum.

I hate to say it, but moving away from that type of midfield seems to have opened us up quite a bit.

This is compounded by Henderson's decline, and Fabinho playing like he's having a kickaround on the beach.
Whilst the last sentence is to a greater or lesser degree accurate you must also take into account that Mane/Firmino/Mo were at their peak as a striking trio that Pl winning season.

If we had the Brexit midfield last season I doubt we'd a) have been anywhere near City and b) have made the CL final.

Why people want to deny last season and point to previous, inferior, seasons I just don't get.
 
Those Hendo stats are even worse when you adjust them for mins played. Hendo played about 2.5 times more mins than Keita and ended up winning the ball only marginally more often.
Which would make Thiago overall our best ball recoverer (actually he's #3 in our team for recoveries in the top third - Milner is top) ! Shame there's no 'per 90 mins' for those stats.
 
Every game? You've based this off 1 game where he gave away a pen and 1 game where he got caught playing Zaha on.

Because as far as last season goes he was still 1 of the best around...ever present as we ended up with the joint best defensive record with 20 clean sheets?

I must admit when I watched a replay of the Palace goal the other night I thought he was uncharacteristically poor. Once Fabinho had been bypassed there was only one option on for Palace and that was to get Zaha running into space behind Nat. Virgil should have seen this and come across much earlier, instead he waited til after Nat was taken out of the game by the through ball before he tried to get over on the cover and he wasn't getting to Zaha in time
 
It wasn't just those fuck ups either. He's noticeably slower and his passing is off. Maybe it's a form thing but he just doesn't look like he did to me.
 
It wasn't just those fuck ups either. He's noticeably slower and his passing is off. Maybe it's a form thing but he just doesn't look like he did to me.
Yeah I felt it too. It seems we miss Konate more than anyone
 
Every game? You've based this off 1 game where he gave away a pen and 1 game where he got caught playing Zaha on.

Because as far as last season goes he was still 1 of the best around...ever present as we ended up with the joint best defensive record with 20 clean sheets?

Think VVD is still the best defender around, also I think it was Nat that played Zaha on, and not VVD. Think he is fine.

The issue is Fab, he is really not up to it, and we played a very high line the other night with Nat has VVD's partner, which was a mistake if there ever was one.

Nah - despite the delusional members on here, we are fucked because of our midfield - all our problems come from them:

1) Not responsive enough to cover the defenders
2) Not passing quickly enough to the forward line before they are overcrowded with opposition players.
3) Just generally shit, slow and sometimes too old.

Klopp's system demands that the engine room is active, dynamic, and lots of energy, something none of them are really - yes Elliot adds a bit of energy, but he is going to play further up front.
 
Fab and Trent are the problems, and have been for a while.

CB's left exposed and just because it's Virgil ..."Oh it's Virgil, he'll sort it out every time no matter who we play"

No, he still needs fucking protection....if Fab and Trent played properly and did their jobs along with Nunez keeping his cool..we win the game comfortably.
 
Fab and Trent are the problems, and have been for a while.

CB's left exposed and just because it's Virgil ..."Oh it's Virgil, he'll sort it out every time no matter who we play"

No, he still needs fucking protection....if Fab and Trent played properly and did their jobs along with Nunez keeping his cool..we win the game comfortably.

Yes but Trent is an attacking full back, so there is no point blaming him, he will always be caught out of position if we want to use his talents. There is no point blaming him or gong there. No point. Fab is the one with the issues, and also the others. There is no mobility in our midfield - but Klopp does not accept that, we can all see the issues. He seems to think he has every type of player - when he does not.
 
You can still be the best CB around while not being as good as you were

True, as for my man Matheus Nunes who would have helped VVD, - well he is in the UK and having his medical and putting pen to paper for ... fucking Wolves. I hate it when we don't sign the right player.
 
Except van Dijk actually caught up with Zaha but, for some reason, didn't put the challenge in, almost as if he was waiting for the office flag to go up.
 
Yeah, the decline in our ability to press and work as well as we used to has been pretty noticeable over the last couple seasons.

For the most part it was put down to a gradual change in style, in part due to the arrival of Thiago.

The problem is that we don't have enough good (technical) players to not out work and out press the opposition. And now that we're caught between bedding in and developer newer and younger players with our more senior players being.. well, a fair bit more senior... we're struggling.
 
Except van Dijk actually caught up with Zaha but, for some reason, didn't put the challenge in, almost as if he was waiting for the office flag to go up.
I think it was Carra who said that by positioning himself there he was blocking any attempted jink inside leaving only one option - beat a world class keeper with an inch perfect strike. Bad luck and a brilliant strike.
 
Last season proved that Virgil is as good as he always have been, and that he's the best CB around.
Being exposed by mistakes and open spaces from our midfield makes several players look worse in some situations.
Its the same with Trent.
 
Except van Dijk actually caught up with Zaha but, for some reason, didn't put the challenge in, almost as if he was waiting for the office flag to go up.

I also wondered, but maybe he thought he can cut the angle enough for allison to get it.
I wanted him to go a bit more at it and block, but he rarely throws himself to the ground
 
It's been noted that we stand off and allow shots at Alisson more than any other top team, mostly because he's fucking brilliant, and also to avoid unlucky deflections. I'm also sure this has something to do shots in certain areas having low probability of going in, and we're prepared to accept the rare occasion they do go in, like Inter's goal in the 2nd leg.
 
Last season proved that Virgil is as good as he always have been, and that he's the best CB around.
Being exposed by mistakes and open spaces from our midfield makes several players look worse in some situations.
Its the same with Trent.

I'm not saying it's all his fault. But i think the days of being able to rely on him fixing up everyone else's mess are over
 
I think it was Carra who said that by positioning himself there he was blocking any attempted jink inside leaving only one option - beat a world class keeper with an inch perfect strike. Bad luck and a brilliant strike.

And that is exactly what happened. For the first time in months I agree with @Frogfish
 
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