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Everton Away - 1st Oct

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[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47004.msg1405184#msg1405184 date=1317047768]
Every time you talk about Lucas, it makes me forget that you generally seem to know what you're talking about.

Everyone has a blind spot I suppose.
[/quote]

Gerry, the reason I win so much betting on football is because I bet against the type of people who rate players like Lucas. I'm not saying I'm always right about players but I've never been more right than I am about Lucas.
 
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405182#msg1405182 date=1317047579]

I'm 90% sure Lucas will have a poor game against Everton, I'm 50% sure Kuyt would do a good job in CM for us - it's worth the risk.
[/quote]

It's not worth the risk at all and certainly not in the derby
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405185#msg1405185 date=1317047854]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405183#msg1405183 date=1317047742]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405179#msg1405179 date=1317047314]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405174#msg1405174 date=1317047029]
Was Skrtel at right back against Gareth Bale equally laughable or was that acceptable in your opinion?
[/quote]

I thought it was a stupid decision meself. Difference is - what options did we have available at the time ? Of those we had, Carra would have made much more sense. Suggesting Kuyt in midfield ahead of the options of Lucas, Spearing and even Connor Coady is just farcical. Having pondered on it I think we need to play 3 in midfield myself against the shite. If Gerrards fit enough then Lucas, Adam and Gerrard. If not, likely Lucas, Adam and Spearing.
[/quote]

What DM attributes do you think Kuyt lacks?
[/quote]

Positioning and Experience mainly. It's not his position Pesam and there are others far more suited to playing DM/CM even if you take Lucas out of the equation.
[/quote]

Well he has played defensively on the right of midfield for us and Holland many times so switching to the middle shouldn't be too much of a problem. In the last 12 months Fergiscum has played Valencia at right back, Nani at left back, carrick and Fletcher have both played centre back, Jones has only been at the club 10 games and has played CB, RB and in midfield. Rooney has played LM, RM and CF over the last 2 seasons. Ferguson's attitude is if the player is good enough he can adapt if it's for the benefit of the team.

Kuyt in for Lucas would IMO benefit the team.
 
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405182#msg1405182 date=1317047579]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47004.msg1405176#msg1405176 date=1317047153]
So because of one experiment that failed badly, you're suggesting we take on another one doomed for failure?
[/quote]

120 games of Lucas at CM has proved disastrous. I'm that desperate to see Lucas benched that I'm prepared to take my chances on Kuyt - he has all the assets required of a DM.

I'm 90% sure Lucas will have a poor game against Everton, I'm 50% sure Kuyt would do a good job in CM for us - it's worth the risk.
[/quote]

kuyt has all the assets required of a DM?
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405187#msg1405187 date=1317048058]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405182#msg1405182 date=1317047579]

I'm 90% sure Lucas will have a poor game against Everton, I'm 50% sure Kuyt would do a good job in CM for us - it's worth the risk.
[/quote]

It's not worth the risk at all and certainly not in the derby
[/quote]

If Lucas and Fellaini both start on Saturday nobody will have to check the betting forum to know I will be laying (betting against) us winning.
 
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405188#msg1405188 date=1317048171]

Well he has played defensively on the right of midfield for us and Holland many times so switching to the middle shouldn't be too much of a problem. In the last 12 months Fergiscum has played Valencia at right back, Nani at left back, carrick and Fletcher have both played centre back, Jones has only been at the club 10 games and has played CB, RB and in midfield. Rooney has played LM, RM and CF over the last 2 seasons. Ferguson's attitude is if the player is good enough he can adapt if it's for the benefit of the team.

Kuyt in for Lucas would IMO benefit the team.
[/quote]

I think the whiskey nosed cunt has only played those players in those positions because his hand has been forced into doing so. Your opinion is you opinion of course. I think it's somewhat skewed when it comes to Lucas, and especially consideration of Kuyt replacing him in CM, but mine obviously differs.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47004.msg1405191#msg1405191 date=1317048268]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405182#msg1405182 date=1317047579]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47004.msg1405176#msg1405176 date=1317047153]
So because of one experiment that failed badly, you're suggesting we take on another one doomed for failure?
[/quote]

120 games of Lucas at CM has proved disastrous. I'm that desperate to see Lucas benched that I'm prepared to take my chances on Kuyt - he has all the assets required of a DM.

I'm 90% sure Lucas will have a poor game against Everton, I'm 50% sure Kuyt would do a good job in CM for us - it's worth the risk.
[/quote]

kuyt has all the assets required of a DM?
[/quote]

Is he mobile and cover a lot of ground? - YES
Can he get stuck in? - YES
Does he read the game well? - YES
Is he 100% committed? - YES
Can he compete aerially? - YES
Can he keep running for 90 minutes? - YES
Will he give away as many stupid free kicks as Lucas? - NO.
 
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405188#msg1405188 date=1317048171]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405185#msg1405185 date=1317047854]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405183#msg1405183 date=1317047742]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405179#msg1405179 date=1317047314]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405174#msg1405174 date=1317047029]
Was Skrtel at right back against Gareth Bale equally laughable or was that acceptable in your opinion?
[/quote]

I thought it was a stupid decision meself. Difference is - what options did we have available at the time ? Of those we had, Carra would have made much more sense. Suggesting Kuyt in midfield ahead of the options of Lucas, Spearing and even Connor Coady is just farcical. Having pondered on it I think we need to play 3 in midfield myself against the shite. If Gerrards fit enough then Lucas, Adam and Gerrard. If not, likely Lucas, Adam and Spearing.
[/quote]

What DM attributes do you think Kuyt lacks?
[/quote]

Positioning and Experience mainly. It's not his position Pesam and there are others far more suited to playing DM/CM even if you take Lucas out of the equation.
[/quote]

Well he has played defensively on the right of midfield for us and Holland many times so switching to the middle shouldn't be too much of a problem. In the last 12 months Fergiscum has played Valencia at right back, Nani at left back, carrick and Fletcher have both played centre back, Jones has only been at the club 10 games and has played CB, RB and in midfield. Rooney has played LM, RM and CF over the last 2 seasons. Ferguson's attitude is if the player is good enough he can adapt if it's for the benefit of the team.

Kuyt in for Lucas would IMO benefit the team.
[/quote]

CB RB - defensive positions therefore the two aren't so difference
LM, RM CF - attacking positions therefore aren't all that different
now if you asked rooney to play as a RB or jones to play as CF...
 
Personally i find it quite silly to think of playing Kuyt in CM, until of course i remind myself who currently plays there for us.

Kuyt isn't the answer, but Lucas need dropping.
 
Yeh it's like I read some posts sometimes and think "what the fuck?" until I remind myself who posted it.
 
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405196#msg1405196 date=1317048496]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47004.msg1405191#msg1405191 date=1317048268]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405182#msg1405182 date=1317047579]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47004.msg1405176#msg1405176 date=1317047153]
So because of one experiment that failed badly, you're suggesting we take on another one doomed for failure?
[/quote]

120 games of Lucas at CM has proved disastrous. I'm that desperate to see Lucas benched that I'm prepared to take my chances on Kuyt - he has all the assets required of a DM.

I'm 90% sure Lucas will have a poor game against Everton, I'm 50% sure Kuyt would do a good job in CM for us - it's worth the risk.
[/quote]

kuyt has all the assets required of a DM?
[/quote]

Is he mobile and cover a lot of ground? - YES
Can he get stuck in? - YES
Does he read the game well? - YES
Is he 100% committed? - YES
Can he compete aerially? - YES
Can he keep running for 90 minutes? - YES
Will he give away as many stupid free kicks as Lucas? - NO.
[/quote]

there is a difference between getting 'stuck in' and competently tackling.
also a defensive midfielder needs to be able to read the game and position himself to snuff out danger

if you think kuyt can play as a holding midfielder why stop there? play him (kuyt) at centre back maybe he'll go a better job than skrtel and also give away less free kicks.
 
lucas hasn't exactly set the world alight in the middle of the park but to suggest litterally ANYONE could do a better is laughable.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405201#msg1405201 date=1317048832]
Yeh it's like I read some posts sometimes and think "what the fuck?" until I remind myself who posted it.
[/quote]

I wish he wasn't but he's shite Sunny.
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47004.msg1405205#msg1405205 date=1317049082]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405201#msg1405201 date=1317048832]
Yeh it's like I read some posts sometimes and think "what the fuck?" until I remind myself who posted it.
[/quote]

I wish he wasn't but he's shite Sunny.


[/quote]

Yeh I feel the same way. Not about Lucas.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405204#msg1405204 date=1317049007]
Kenny - given our midfield options - who would you drop Lucas for?
[/quote]

If he's ready i'd go for: Hendo--SG--Adam, if not i'd play Spearing instead.

I know you were happy for him to be starting for us, but Kenny not buying a decent CM to replace Lucas is coming back to bite us on the arse.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405206#msg1405206 date=1317049140]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47004.msg1405205#msg1405205 date=1317049082]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405201#msg1405201 date=1317048832]
Yeh it's like I read some posts sometimes and think "what the fuck?" until I remind myself who posted it.
[/quote]

I wish he wasn't but he's shite Sunny.


[/quote]

Yeh I feel the same way. Not about Lucas.
[/quote]

Why you being a twat about this?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47004.msg1405202#msg1405202 date=1317048846]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405196#msg1405196 date=1317048496]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47004.msg1405191#msg1405191 date=1317048268]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405182#msg1405182 date=1317047579]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47004.msg1405176#msg1405176 date=1317047153]
So because of one experiment that failed badly, you're suggesting we take on another one doomed for failure?
[/quote]

120 games of Lucas at CM has proved disastrous. I'm that desperate to see Lucas benched that I'm prepared to take my chances on Kuyt - he has all the assets required of a DM.

I'm 90% sure Lucas will have a poor game against Everton, I'm 50% sure Kuyt would do a good job in CM for us - it's worth the risk.
[/quote]

kuyt has all the assets required of a DM?
[/quote]

Is he mobile and cover a lot of ground? - YES
Can he get stuck in? - YES
Does he read the game well? - YES
Is he 100% committed? - YES
Can he compete aerially? - YES
Can he keep running for 90 minutes? - YES
Will he give away as many stupid free kicks as Lucas? - NO.
[/quote]

there is a difference between getting 'stuck in' and competently tackling.
also a defensive midfielder needs to be able to read the game and position himself to snuff out danger


[/quote]

Neil read your first line again and think "Lucas" because although he tackles it's certainly not competently (if it was our defence would get a hell of lot better potection). Kuyt has played at the highest level for Holland and Liverpool in midfield and never shirked a tackle, is it too much of a leap of imagination for you to think of him moving inside to the centre?

Stop now Neil because we're poles apart on all points and continuing the debate is as pointless as LTW and Lech debating the middl east.
 
basically (and it's this old chestnut again) I think we defend too deep meaning lucas has to cover more ground than he should. I watched the manu stoke game and manu were holding a very high line which made sheild the defense easier for anderson. admitedly they may have just wanted to push up to push crouch out of their box but none the less the play was compressed between the defense and the attack.

I think lucas is asked to do too much by himself, there are huge gaps all over the midfield, the defense is too deep and his midfield partner (adam) goes missing for long periods offering nothing going forwards or back the other way.
far as I can see lucas is the best served at sheilding the defense and unfortunately they need shielding.
 
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405210#msg1405210 date=1317049429]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47004.msg1405202#msg1405202 date=1317048846]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405196#msg1405196 date=1317048496]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47004.msg1405191#msg1405191 date=1317048268]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405182#msg1405182 date=1317047579]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47004.msg1405176#msg1405176 date=1317047153]
So because of one experiment that failed badly, you're suggesting we take on another one doomed for failure?
[/quote]

120 games of Lucas at CM has proved disastrous. I'm that desperate to see Lucas benched that I'm prepared to take my chances on Kuyt - he has all the assets required of a DM.

I'm 90% sure Lucas will have a poor game against Everton, I'm 50% sure Kuyt would do a good job in CM for us - it's worth the risk.
[/quote]

kuyt has all the assets required of a DM?
[/quote]

Is he mobile and cover a lot of ground? - YES
Can he get stuck in? - YES
Does he read the game well? - YES
Is he 100% committed? - YES
Can he compete aerially? - YES
Can he keep running for 90 minutes? - YES
Will he give away as many stupid free kicks as Lucas? - NO.
[/quote]

there is a difference between getting 'stuck in' and competently tackling.
also a defensive midfielder needs to be able to read the game and position himself to snuff out danger


[/quote]

Neil read your first line again and think "Lucas" because although he tackles it's certainly not competently (if it was our defence would get a hell of lot better potection). Kuyt has played at the highest level for Holland and Liverpool in midfield and never shirked a tackle, is it too much of a leap of imagination for you to think of him moving inside to the centre?

Stop now Neil because we're poles apart on all points and continuing the debate is as pointless as LTW and Lech debating the middl east.

[/quote]


lucas gives away needless free kicks from time to time but he can certainly tackle, put it this way, I trust lucas to do the job more than pretty much anyone else in the entire squad (including gerrard as I think he is better utilised further up field).
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405206#msg1405206 date=1317049140]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47004.msg1405205#msg1405205 date=1317049082]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405201#msg1405201 date=1317048832]
Yeh it's like I read some posts sometimes and think "what the fuck?" until I remind myself who posted it.
[/quote]

I wish he wasn't but he's shite Sunny.


[/quote]

Yeh I feel the same way. Not about Lucas.
[/quote]

The post Sunny, not the poster.
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47004.msg1405207#msg1405207 date=1317049322]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405204#msg1405204 date=1317049007]
Kenny - given our midfield options - who would you drop Lucas for?
[/quote]

If he's ready i'd go for: Hendo--SG--Adam, if not i'd play Spearing instead.

I know you were happy for him to be starting for us, but Kenny not buying a decent CM to replace Lucas is coming back to bite us on the arse.
[/quote]

I think SG + Adam may work and we should give it a go but I think Stevie will spend a lot of time covering for Adam. Hendo - not a chance in hell at the moment. Any combination with Hendo and no Lucas in midfield means we'd be completely fragile there. Even more so than now. Those people who think Spearing is a better player than Lucas are wrong IMO. He'll have the odd good game but he's bottom of the pile of our midfielders for me.

To qualify my standpoint a bit clearer so perhaps you can understand it a little better - in the absence of someone better in the position Lucas plays I'm happy for him to be starting and I think he's justified that as do several LFC management teams. That's not to say we do not need better - of course we do. Saying that though I don't buy into the Lucas is shite bollocks eithers. He's not great no but he's far from shite. Do we need better ? Yes. Is he the best in that position we have currently available ? Yes. I'm sorry that makes people uncomfortable but it's the truth. It doesn't matter how you chop and change the midfield and what wild suggestions people throw in without clearly thinking it out but he's the best we have in that position. Doesn't make it a comfortable fact at all and the end game Lucas should eventually be no more than a decent squad option but it's the unfortunate reality.

It's either that or completely change the playing system which I doubt we have the personnel for.
 
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47004.msg1405213#msg1405213 date=1317049966]

The post Sunny, not the poster.
[/quote]

I've no idea what you're talking about
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=47004.msg1405211#msg1405211 date=1317049568]

I think lucas is asked to do too much by himself, there are huge gaps all over the midfield, the defense is too deep and his midfield partner (adam) goes missing for long periods offering nothing going forwards or back the other way.
far as I can see lucas is the best served at sheilding the defense and unfortunately they need shielding.
[/quote]

Yes this
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47004.msg1405209#msg1405209 date=1317049382]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405206#msg1405206 date=1317049140]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47004.msg1405205#msg1405205 date=1317049082]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405201#msg1405201 date=1317048832]
Yeh it's like I read some posts sometimes and think "what the fuck?" until I remind myself who posted it.
[/quote]

I wish he wasn't but he's shite Sunny.


[/quote]

Yeh I feel the same way. Not about Lucas.
[/quote]

Why you being a twat about this?


[/quote]

Less of the twat please Kenny.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405215#msg1405215 date=1317049987]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47004.msg1405207#msg1405207 date=1317049322]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405204#msg1405204 date=1317049007]
Kenny - given our midfield options - who would you drop Lucas for?
[/quote]

If he's ready i'd go for: Hendo--SG--Adam, if not i'd play Spearing instead.

I know you were happy for him to be starting for us, but Kenny not buying a decent CM to replace Lucas is coming back to bite us on the arse.
[/quote]

I think SG + Adam may work and we should give it a go but I think Stevie will spend a lot of time covering for Adam. Hendo - not a chance in hell at the moment. Any combination with Hendo and no Lucas in midfield means we'd be completely fragile there. Even more so than now. Those people who think Spearing is a better player than Lucas are wrong IMO. He'll have the odd good game but he's bottom of the pile of our midfielders for me.

To qualify my standpoint a bit clearer so perhaps you can understand it a little better - in the absence of someone better in the position Lucas plays I'm happy for him to be starting and I think he's justified that as do several LFC management teams. That's not to say we do not need better - of course we do. Saying that though I don't buy into the Lucas is shite bollocks eithers. He's not great no but he's far from shite. Do we need better ? Yes. Is he the best in that position we have currently available ? Yes. I'm sorry that makes people uncomfortable but it's the truth. It doesn't matter how you chop and change the midfield and what wild suggestions people throw in without clearly thinking it out but he's the best we have in that position. Doesn't make it a comfortable fact at all and the end game Lucas should eventually be no more than a decent squad option but it's the unfortunate reality.

It's either that or completely change the playing system which I doubt we have the personnel for.
[/quote]

Yep, pretty much.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405215#msg1405215 date=1317049987]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47004.msg1405207#msg1405207 date=1317049322]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405204#msg1405204 date=1317049007]
Kenny - given our midfield options - who would you drop Lucas for?
[/quote]

If he's ready i'd go for: Hendo--SG--Adam, if not i'd play Spearing instead.

I know you were happy for him to be starting for us, but Kenny not buying a decent CM to replace Lucas is coming back to bite us on the arse.
[/quote]

I think SG + Adam may work and we should give it a go but I think Stevie will spend a lot of time covering for Adam. Hendo - not a chance in hell at the moment. Any combination with Hendo and no Lucas in midfield means we'd be completely fragile there. Even more so than now. Those people who think Spearing is a better player than Lucas are wrong IMO. He'll have the odd good game but he's bottom of the pile of our midfielders for me.

To qualify my standpoint a bit clearer so perhaps you can understand it a little better - in the absence of someone better in the position Lucas plays I'm happy for him to be starting and I think he's justified that as do several LFC management teams. That's not to say we do not need better - of course we do. Saying that though I don't buy into the Lucas is shite bollocks eithers. He's not great no but he's far from shite. Do we need better ? Yes. Is he the best in that position we have currently available ? Yes. I'm sorry that makes people uncomfortable but it's the truth. It doesn't matter how you chop and change the midfield and what wild suggestions people throw in without clearly thinking it out but he's the best we have in that position. Doesn't make it a comfortable fact at all and the end game Lucas should eventually be no more than a decent squad option but it's the unfortunate reality.

It's either that or completely change the playing system which I doubt we have the personnel for.
[/quote]

totally agree with this.
sunny, do you think lucas is better than momo (pre eye injury)?
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405218#msg1405218 date=1317050085]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47004.msg1405209#msg1405209 date=1317049382]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405206#msg1405206 date=1317049140]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47004.msg1405205#msg1405205 date=1317049082]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47004.msg1405201#msg1405201 date=1317048832]
Yeh it's like I read some posts sometimes and think "what the fuck?" until I remind myself who posted it.
[/quote]

I wish he wasn't but he's shite Sunny.


[/quote]

Yeh I feel the same way. Not about Lucas.
[/quote]

Why you being a twat about this?


[/quote]

Less of the twat please Kenny.
[/quote]

Less of the needless digs then.
 
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