Lines of succession

[Farkmaster]

I'm sure our attack is worse than last year at the moment. Which is both unsurprising and also odd to be worried about 4 wins in. The thing is, though, I didn't think our attack last year had amazing understanding either. What I did think it has were some simple options, Salah, who was so direct and difficult in space, and a good dribbler in Diaz who was good without space. The interplay wasnt brilliant but it worked enough. Right now when some poor fuck gets off the gravy train at the wrong stop and and he is off and galloping, what's the easy choice in front? Ekitike has started well but isnt making the right runs consistently enough. Gakpo isn't a winger as much as an inside forward, and can be marked out of dangerous spaces. Salah isn't even a threat.

Simply our attackers all need to step up. It isn't just Salah. Diaz was Gakpos chief competition last year and Gakpo has just extended his contract. Is he campaigning to be a major part of a new look attack? Is he pressing on from last year? If so why do we want to Rio earlier, in so many games?

Wirtz? Just absolutely nothing special at the moment, to where he has been overshadowed in attacking import by the player he ousted, from right back. And watch this trick, that doesn't mean I think he never will be special. He probably won't, mind you, but it's a bit cunty going around this world with that attitude young man.

For another trick, I'll also be able to see that he's struggling physically in a faster stronger league, and that his obvious technical ability isn't yet overcoming some fairly rudimentary manhandling and closing down. We brought him in for exactly this sort of game.

That leaves isak. The ready made. One of the best strikers in the world *with a human face, I'm told. So yeah he has to fucking hit the ground firing and it's a tough ask if this shit are still stinking up the place, but no excuses.

Our best attackers are in the past now. I think we miss Diaz sometimes, and people don't show him enough respect, but he was just very very good, he wasn't on the level of mane, firmino, Salah, Torres, Suarez. He wasn't on jotas level, in his earlier years. Not close. But what Diaz was doing last season at the beginning of the season is better than anyone is doing right now. How Diaz entered this team was far more explosive than anyone now. There was a sense that someone was picking up the mantle, even if he didn't, entirely.

Watching Salah deteriorate isn't fun but we should be talking about how he is being eclipsed. Is anyone even up for it?

Who wants it? Do you have confidence in any of them to be the guy? To wrest the crown from Salah? To help some of you move on?

I said it'd be fascinating watching this new attack come together. It's fine now guys, actually. I know it takes time and all but I lied. Im not actually that fascinated. Or rather, I'm sufficiently and appropriately fascinated. So it's ok now attackers. You can just be good now instead, if you don't mind. Well, no, not good. The best. I kind of got used to it and liked it, and I'm greedy, and impatient. I'm a child really. I do this whole Liverpool thing to remain a child.

 

[rurikbird]

I think Wirtz needs his buddy Frimpong in the team - perhaps in Salah’s place.

 

[StevieM]

I’ve seen very interesting breakdown, might have been Adam Cleary’s latest, which talks about one of our biggest current problems being that Gakpo, Ekitike, Wirtz and Mac all like to work in the inside left channel - so they’re all getting on top of each other and congregating in the same overly congested space and it also means Mo is more isolated and less involved.

Ekitike especially, I feel like is dropping too deep on the left to get involved and we are diminished through the centre.

That wasn’t the problem when we had Dom or Harvey in the 10 because they drifted more to the right; or Diaz or Jota either on the left or the centre because they both moved around more; or even with Darwin upfront, because him being in the inside left channel would have likely meant he was on-side - so he definitely was somewhere else.

The theory being, that Isak is more likely to either hold a central space or not drift solely to the left.

So if Isak and Dom are playing instead of Mac & Ekitike, it should give Wirtz more space and Mo more support.

If Isak isn’t playing, and Ekitike is playing upfront then we need to find a way of not having everyone gravitate to the left.

I’d also say…. And this is one that isn’t going to be an easy discussion - there’s probably something to think about in terms of what losing Trent has actually done to our attacking capabilities - he was one of our main creative players and also one of our best options to ping passes over opposition high press. Also he was good at linking up with Mo… arguably because they were both delightfully oblivious to any sort of defensive work.

I’d say there a bit more work to be done on the training ground hand this is showing us what happens when you try to change lots of things all at once.

The good news is… we’re finding ways to win despite not finding ways to play well.

That and two clean sheets in a row is good.

 

[Modo]

one of our biggest current problems being that Gakpo, Ekitike, Wirtz and Mac all like to work in the inside left channel - so they’re all getting on top of each other and congregating in the same overly congested space and it also means Mo is more isolated and less involved.

This, I was afraid of this.
Why did i keep saying play Wirtz on the left?
Because I had a feeling that Gakpo and Wirtz would get in each others way.

About the Italian...
Notice that he's not coming on to play on the wing and he's not coming on for Salah.
This is why he wasn't picked in the CL squad.
Isak will obviously start, Ekitike will be our first option from the bench.
Ngumoha will be our wing option. Which leaves Chiesa as "the Harvey" of this season.

"They" said Slot will rotate when he gets "his" players. Well he got them. I bet I'll remind everyone of this again in the coming months when he persists with Szobo at right back just to fit everyone in.

 

[dmishra]

It seems to me we are making a clunky transition from Klopp's 4-3-3 to a traditional 4-2-3-1. We've spent 250 million recruiting the best available #9 and #10 on the market, so it does seem that that's the formation Slot wants to play. The trouble is our wingers are simply not 4-2-3-1 wingers, but inside forwards who've made their careers in a 4-3-3.

It's an odd fit at the moment. Things will look better when Isak and Wirtz play together consistently, but this problem won't be solved until Gakpo and Salah are upgraded to PSG-type ball-carrying wingers. Ngumoha looks to be the right sort of player for this, but he's simply too young at the moment.

We'll probably need to recruit someone like Olise or Barcola next year for this formation to really start humming.

Alternatively, we need to look at more creative ways of making this work:

Option 1: Diamond formation with Isak and Ekitike/Salah up front and Wirtz in the classic #10 position, and Szoboszlai in the runner role. Width to come from Kerkez and Bradley/Frimpong

Option 2: Drop Gakpo, and use Szoboszlai and Wirtz interchangeably for the LW and #10 positions. Something rurik suggested a while ago.

Option 3: Revert to a 4-3-3, with Wirtz playing as an #8 instead of a #10. Will Slot do this? He seems to have sold Wirtz on the idea of a #10 role.

 

[rurikbird]

I’d also say…. And this is one that isn’t going to be an easy discussion - there’s probably something to think about in terms of what losing Trent has actually done to our attacking capabilities - he was one of our main creative players and also one of our best options to ping passes over opposition high press. Also he was good at linking up with Mo… arguably because they were both delightfully oblivious to any sort of defensive work.

Losing Trent has definitely hurt Mo because Trent used to find him with an early ball to run at the defenders before they could settle into position… now he receives the ball against a static defence like an ordinary winger and is looking… rather ordinary.

 

[Fabio]

I think another issue is that on gakpo and Salah, we now have 2 ponderous, slow final ball wingers, rather than 1 direct (Diaz) and 1 as the final ball (Salah). I don't want to put it on the lad, but Rio is the exact type of player who needs to play opposite to gakpo/Salah. The direct, cause panic in the box style winger. Even Frimpong on the right has the knackered for being more direct.

I do not want to start a 17 year old consistently....but he's consistently showing the big boys how to do it.

Slot needs to tell Ekitike to stop dropping deep, or needs to tell wirtz that he needs to bomb forward when Ekitike does. There's zero point of them both being withing 4 yards of each other

 

[Modo]

Our two wingers aren't very two-footed either.

 

[MomoWASright]

Part of the issue is the pace we use the ball. It’s all slow, slow, slow, slow, slow. By the time we move the ball into their third they’ve managed to get themselves set again. In the first half only Gravenberch was getting past his man to break the lines only for everyone else to be stood in a crap position. Once Robbo and Bradley were on the pitch we started making more chances as they were either getting early balls in, or joining Gravy in beating and getting past men.

Salah not being able to trap a bag of cement isn’t helping either. We are transitioning to a new formation and I find it difficult to understand how Mo fits into this style. Are we currently playing neither 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 which means we have no real patterns of play to work with? No patterns and no runs to where we expect the ball to go.

Yesterday was the first game we didn’t lose that midfield battle throughout and that coincided with Szoboszlai coming back into midfield. Wirtz is a problem here because he is that tippy tappy floaty 10. Which we don’t play with and haven’t done so in an age. Right now he seems more suited to City than us, but that could be an issue with the formation shift.

To be honest, I hope we aren’t going to replicate City’s tippy tappy bull. I find that tedious. As Woland said in a message yesterday, football died with Klopp.

 

[keniget]

It seems to me we are making a clunky transition from Klopp's 4-3-3 to a traditional 4-2-3-1. We've spent 250 million recruiting the best available #9 and #10 on the market, so it does seem that that's the formation Slot wants to play. The trouble is our wingers are simply not 4-2-3-1 wingers, but inside forwards who've made their careers in a 4-3-3.

It's an odd fit at the moment. Things will look better when Isak and Wirtz play together consistently, but this problem won't be solved until Gakpo and Salah are upgraded to PSG-type ball-carrying wingers. Ngumoha looks to be the right sort of player for this, but he's simply too young at the moment.

We'll probably need to recruit someone like Olise or Barcola next year for this formation to really start humming.

Alternatively, we need to look at more creative ways of making this work:

Option 1: Diamond formation with Isak and Ekitike/Salah up front and Wirtz in the classic #10 position, and Szoboszlai in the runner role. Width to come from Kerkez and Bradley/Frimpong

Option 2: Drop Gakpo, and use Szoboszlai and Wirtz interchangeably for the LW and #10 positions. Something rurik suggested a while ago.

Option 3: Revert to a 4-3-3, with Wirtz playing as an #8 instead of a #10. Will Slot do this? He seems to have sold Wirtz on the idea of a #10 role.

And yeah, this was the big concern with signing Wirtz - how does he fit? On paper, there is no natural set up in which everything looks right.

Thus far the primary narrative has been that it doesn't matter, he will win out through sheer talent (would love this to be the case). I didn't watch him regularly in Germany so will take everyone else's word that he is a generational talent but nevertheless, he still looks to me, based on early evidence, a system player and the degree to which he succeeds will be determined by how well the team is set up around him.

Perhaps Slot and co have some magic they'll be applying on the training pitch that will become more evident as the season progresses and players become more acclimatized.

As an aside, I think one thing that will help is getting the fullbacks on both flanks working. I might be wrong but I feel like Gakpo (who in fairness has tried mixing it up a bit more) and Salah could do with a bit more support allowing them to float a bit more.

 

[Brizzle]

One thing Wirtz doesn't seem to have is the willingness to run into the box and be a recipient of a ball - he has an incredible desire to always get hold of the ball and direct/dictate.

I think the balance with Wirtz will work better if one of the full backs is playing like a winger (in the games without Firm/Bradley this should have been Kerkez but we've had him holding back on his attacking instincts) meaning that Gakpo or Salah tucks in creating two forwards ahead of Wirtz.

In a parked bus situation like yesterday, our ideal formation has Kerkez & Frim/Bradley as very advanced wingers, both Salah & Gakpo/Ekitike tucked inside and one of the DMs playing a lot more box to box.

If we come into a game like this again i'd want to see something like

Frim - Ibu - Virgil - Kerkez
Grav - Szobo
Wirtz
Salah Isak Ekitike/Gak

For more open games, we would want Macca in the DM line (or fresh and also playing more box to box).

 

[dmishra]

One thing Wirtz doesn't seem to have is the willingness to run into the box and be a recipient of a ball - he has an incredible desire to always get hold of the ball and direct/dictate.

I think the balance with Wirtz will work better if one of the full backs is playing like a winger (in the games without Firm/Bradley this should have been Kerkez but we've had him holding back on his attacking instincts) meaning that Gakpo or Salah tucks in creating two forwards ahead of Wirtz.

In a parked bus situation like yesterday, our ideal formation has Kerkez & Frim/Bradley as very advanced wingers, both Salah & Gakpo/Ekitike tucked inside and one of the DMs playing a lot more box to box.

If we come into a game like this again i'd want to see something like

Frim - Ibu - Virgil - Kerkez
Grav - Szobo
Wirtz
Salah Isak Ekitike/Gak

For more open games, we would want Macca in the DM line (or fresh and also playing more box to box).

Presently, we’re playing something like this:


--------------------Ekitike

---Gakpo---------Wirtz---------------------Salah

---------Macallister---Gravenberch

Kerkez--------------------------------------Szobo

------------------VVD----Konate



I want us to transition more into this:

------------------------Isak

--------------------------------Salah

---------Szobo-------------Wirtz

----------------Macallister-------------Bradley

-----------------------Gravenberch

--------Kerkez

--------------------VVD----Konate

 

[dogboy]

Presently, we’re playing something like this:


--------------------Ekitike

---Gakpo---------Wirtz---------------------Salah

---------Macallister---Gravenberch

Kerkez--------------------------------------Szobo

------------------VVD----Konate



I want us to transition more into this:

------------------------Isak

--------------------------------Salah

---------Szobo-------------Wirtz

----------------Macallister-------------Bradley

-----------------------Gravenberch

--------Kerkez

--------------------VVD----Konate

Ah, the red arrows formation 😉

 

[binomial]

Arne has a shitload to sort out, because he's had the backing now....we've bought in 2 new players for the forward line and we've still not seen any real link up or understanding between them. It's the same areas on the field we're struggling with which were the weak points last season, I put that down to the negative system/approach we have. Klopp would've never stood by and let this continue for as long as it has, and it's been shit this whole calendar year.

Oh & I'm very much looking forward to the day Salah is dropped indefinitely.

 

[bluebell]

Arne has a shitload to sort out, because he's had the backing now....we've bought in 2 new players for the forward line and we've still not seen any real link up or understanding between them. It's the same areas on the field we're struggling with which were the weak points last season, I put that down to the negative system/approach we have. Klopp would've never stood by and let this continue for as long as it has, and it's been shit this whole calendar year.

Oh & I'm very much looking forward to the day Salah is dropped indefinitely.

You are fucking crazy. Go back on the meds!

 

[bluebell]

We've started slow, but have 4 wins out 4. Getting in 7 new players and expecting the team to gel and play as a cohesive unit from the get go is pure fairy tales.
Towards the tale end of the season we have winning streak of 10-15 games in a row, we will win the league. The Arse and City, hopefully will be riddled with injuries

 

[Fabio]

One thing Wirtz doesn't seem to have is the willingness to run into the box and be a recipient of a ball - he has an incredible desire to always get hold of the ball and direct/dictate.

The weird thing is, he did this a lot in the bundesliga. I think it's a tactical decision to keep him outside the box for a late third man run. Problem is, our forwards too deep to make the space for said third man run

 

[Brizzle]

The good thing is we just signed one of the best strikers in Europe who will join the attack, meaning we have options to change up the front three more frequently from the start. I do think we are going to miss Diaz's ability to make something out of nothing, and Rio is too young to get enough minutes to be on the pitch at times we need that.

 

[StevieM]

If Wirtz predominantly played on the left at Leverkusen, then not only is he coming to a new country, league and team and learning a new system (because we don’t play 343 like they did), he’s also learning to play in a slightly different position.

No doubt in my mind that Slot believes Wirtz future is a central creative 10 and can coach him to excel in that position - but not so sure he can do it in a couple of months.

Same with the other new players - you’d have to think there’s a grand plan behind each of them - we’re just privy to it quite yet.

Performance has been disappointing - but not just from the new players - Mac, Gakkers and Mo have also looked off it just now - Gakkers is practically screaming to be benched and given league cup games and Mo is actually looking like he forgot he signed a new contract and thinks he’s retired.

Maybe, given the summer wit’s what happened with Jota they all aren’t quite over it yet - I don’t know, but it does feel like this is all a training ground and time issue.

Thankfully our first 4 games have gone some way to buying us some time.

 

[Frogfish]

Losing Trent has definitely hurt Mo because Trent used to find him with an early ball to run at the defenders before they could settle into position… now he receives the ball against a static defence like an ordinary winger and is looking… rather ordinary.

I'm not sure how often a Trent to Mo. pass created an assist for Mo. but in terms of goals (even this not easy to find) LFC History says only twice in the whole of 2024 (the year not the season).

More likely those long balls helped us break out. The issue this season is that even when Mo. is receiving the ball out of defence he's either miscontrolling it, misplacing his pass or getting tackled, more often than not. So it's not simply a case of isolation but of technical deterioration. I hope this is just a phase because dropping Mo. is going to be difficult for Slot.

 

[Woland]

Bit mad and also reassuring that our subs have been integral to every win.

Bournemouth - chiesa comes on scores the winner
Newcastle - Rio the same
Arsenal - Cujo starts running forward and gets the free kick Szob scores a worldy from
Burnley - Frimpong hits the ball at some manc bellend's arm.

We clearly have strength in depth. At the minute we're trying to give as much time to high profile signings to give them an opportunity to gel. Maybe it should be the other way round. Go with what works and then introduce the new guys.

 

[Brizzle]

Bit mad and also reassuring that our subs have been integral to every win.

Bournemouth - chiesa comes on scores the winner
Newcastle - Rio the same
Arsenal - Cujo starts running forward and gets the free kick Szob scores a worldy from
Burnley - Frimpong hits the ball at some manc bellend's arm.

We clearly have strength in depth. At the minute we're trying to give as much time to high profile signings to give them an opportunity to gel. Maybe it should be the other way round. Go with what works and then introduce the new guys.

Yep - i'd be open to seeing us go back to Mac, Grav & Szob in midfield and use Wirtz either to rotate/switch with Gakpo or as a sub later on for Szob whilst he grows into the team, without us sacrificing any semblance of cohesion

 

[Woland]

About a month ago everyone was expecting we'd go backwards before we went forwards. I remember posting in some topic saying I thought we'd do better in the CL than the PL this season because it would take half at least half a season for all this change to settle down, by which time we'd be out of the running for the league.

That is the genuine rational helicopter view. But now we're living it we're not happy. Well get used to it. The only we're not being served up that we expected is dropped points. The performances have gone backwards, the results are great.

We all knew you couldn't change so much without an initial drop in form didn't we? Did anyone expect anything else? And yet we're top of the league with a 100% record. Pretty amazing given the circs.

 

[Mamma Mia]

About a month ago everyone was expecting we'd go backwards before we went forwards. I remember posting in some topic saying I thought we'd do better in the CL than the PL this season because it would take half at least half a season for all this change to settle down, by which time we'd be out of the running for the league.

That is the genuine rational helicopter view. But now we're living it we're not happy. Well get used to it. The only we're not being served up that we expected is dropped points. The performances have gone backwards, the results are great.

We all knew you couldn't change so much without an initial drop in form didn't we? Did anyone expect anything else? And yet we're top of the league with a 100% record. Pretty amazing given the circs.

It's almost worth being... happy about?

 

[Woland]

Definitely. I am. Bit worried about the next couple of games. But I was a bit worried about the last couple and we won them. It's exciting isn't it?

 

[Farkmaster]

Definitely. I am. Bit worried about the next couple of games. But I was a bit worried about the last couple and we won them. It's exciting isn't it?

I would be more excited if I was looking at one of our attackers and thinking "he's not quite there yet, but he's definitely got it, he's going to get into that rarified air."

I don't see that yet, with any of them, is what I'm getting at in part.

Neither am I thinking they're shit, in fact I've been quite happy with ekitike. Gakpo is... fine. We've just gone from having three world class attackers to two to one and a half to one to zero.

So yes, many great points made about the setup, the tendencies, the things to work on as a unit, the movement etc. There is so much room for growth collectively. There's definitely a lot of room for growth individually, but no one is signalling to me so far that this is an opportunity they're going to exploit, and they are going to be the next face of the team.

 

[Brizzle]

View: https://x.com/cf_compss/status/1967321151950205286?s=46&t=6wcnB4HyUnoowKD5QT7uAw

Watch this and instead of watching him shoot, look how often he’s overlooking a Kerkez overlap. The kid has been poor but it’s hard to excel as an attacking full back when the greedy cunt at LW ignores you every time

 

[MomoWASright]

View: https://x.com/cf_compss/status/1967321151950205286?s=46&t=6wcnB4HyUnoowKD5QT7uAw

Watch this and instead of watching him shoot, look how often he’s overlooking a Kerkez overlap. The kid has been poor but it’s hard to excel as an attacking full back when the greedy cunt at LW ignores you every time

His best moment was early in the second half when we went the outside to the line and Walker somehow managed to get there to give us a corner.

 

[Woland]

I would be more excited if I was looking at one of our attackers and thinking "he's not quite there yet, but he's definitely got it, he's going to get into that rarified air."

I don't see that yet, with any of them, is what I'm getting at in part.

Neither am I thinking they're shit, in fact I've been quite happy with ekitike. Gakpo is... fine. We've just gone from having three world class attackers to two to one and a half to one to zero.

So yes, many great points made about the setup, the tendencies, the things to work on as a unit, the movement etc. There is so much room for growth collectively. There's definitely a lot of room for growth individually, but no one is signalling to me so far that this is an opportunity they're going to exploit, and they are going to be the next face of the team.

Yeah but I think the sane amongst us knew we would really miss Diaz. That's why a massive European side wanted to spend fuckloads on a relatively old dude. I don't think Mo is finished, I just think we're not playing as expansively as we have done before because we're trying to jam a traditional 9 and a 10 into places that were much more fluid under Klopp. It'll take work to fix, but again, I thought we all knew this.

 

[Farkmaster]

Yeah but I think the sane amongst us knew we would really miss Diaz. That's why a massive European side wanted to spend fuckloads on a relatively old dude. I don't think Mo is finished, I just think we're not playing as expansively as we have done before because we're trying to jam a traditional 9 and a 10 into places that were much more fluid under Klopp. It'll take work to fix, but again, I thought we all knew this.

I get all of that, I just want to see something from one of our attackers that allows me to get carried away for a second. To imagine that they are going to develop into something scary and fun to watch, rather than very good and functional. Im not talking about expecting everything to click.