Barca clear out

[Judge Jules]

1 - Tweak rather than change, I'd say. Example: if we'd soft-pedalled against Palace after going three up, we'd have won.
2 - Rather than that, bring in at least one top MF (*not* necessarily Mascherano, though if we only sign one he'd need to have similar defensive capability IMO) who can contribute more to the defensive effort when needed alongside Stevie, Henderson and Allen. Incidentally I can see Stevie being rested at times next season when the CL adds to our fixture list.
3 - Again, I see the need as supplementing rather than changing them. Any new signing would need to be able to come into the team sooner rather than later and be willing and able to organise others.

 

[StevieM]

1. We chased a game we needn't have against Palace - had we held - like we normally do we'd have been fine - no need for a change in personnel there.

2. He's not going to play a lot. Is it a Lucas replacement?

3. I agree.

 

[Judge Jules]

We don't normally, though. Either we need to start, or we need to cope better with the extra opportunities that our usual style gives the opposition.

I see the new MF playing more than that. Heavy demands will be made on the squad and it'll need to be bigger as well as better in order to meet them.

 

[Ryan]

I don't care what anyone says, but Mascherano is a beast.

I'd just like a destroyer in that role, like what Mascherano used to do - fuck people up, kick them up in the air, and then pass a short ball to someone.

The Other Sports Forum is one down dude.

 

[StevieM]

We don't normally, though. Either we need to start, or we need to cope better with the extra opportunities that our usual style gives the opposition.

I see the new MF playing more than that. Heavy demands will be made on the squad and it'll need to be bigger as well as better in order to meet them.

But then again - the expectation is that more teams will "park the bus" to nullify our attack rather than attack us & leave more space.

The way to make us more solid at the back, might be is to have our FB's not pushing on as much.

I don't see Rodgers changing his philosophy - and I'm not sure I want him to. There's something kind of endearing about just giving it a crack and letting everyone else worry about us for a change.

 

[ILD]

I can't see Cesc leaving. Why would they sell and why would he want to leave? He was playing in the premiership and captain of Arsenal and did what he could to run back 'home' to Barca. I can't see him agitating for a move already.

Tiago already left and Xavi is winding down. Cesc will get even more game time in midfield next season. I presume United will go all out again for him this summer but why go there?

 

[Frogfish]

Judging a midfielder by how many tackles he makes is like judging a doctor by how many diseases he's caught.

What ? Like he's shit if he can't diagnose them ?

 

[dmishra]

In short, improve the defense. It's not like our midfield has been overrun – during the winning run, when Henderson was playing in every game and Allen in most away games, we won the midfield battle every time. Lucas doesn't have enough speed to cover nearly as much ground as Hendo and it showed in Norwich and Palace games, when our midfield started returning to its unfortunate early-season pattern of defending deeply and reactively in the 2nd halves.

Some coaches set up teams with a clear separation between creative players and "workers" – Mourinho and Scolari are the two most prominent examples. Van Marwijk also used this system to take Holland to the World Cup final not long ago. Their front 6 would usually feature 2 "workers" and 4 "flair" players, who are only asked to perform the most basic defensive tasks. Sometimes one of the "workers" can be somewhat of a playmaker, but that's as far as these coaches go. These teams are effective, but they can also be boring and predictable. You tolerate them only for as long as the results are good.

Rodgers comes from the completely opposite strain of football thought, one exemplified by the likes of Van Gaal, Hiddink, Bielsa and Guardiola. In those systems there is barely any separation – attacking players are all expected to work hard and participate in the team press, nominally defensive players have to be creators first. These coaches usually favor 4-3-3 systems, which means one more midfielder and one less striker/AM. Because of this numerical advantage in midfield and also since the whole team including the forwards is working hard without the ball, you can get away with a lot less "steel" in midfield. In fact, to get the right balance you must have really strong creators in positions such as DM and CM, otherwise your team will struggle to turn its possession advantage into goals. You can't build a Barca with Obi Mikel and David Luiz (or Mascherano and Alex Song for that matter) in DM/CM, it has to be someone like Busquets and Xavi. That's why Javi Martinez is about to leave Bayern – Guardiola doesn't have a particular need for a player like him. Neither does Rodgers.

I really don't watch much of Barca, but how creative is Busquets really? He's certainly not a regista in the mould of Xabi or Pirlo from his Milan days. You're implying that he's a significantly better playmaker than Martinez, Luiz and Song - all of whom are pretty competent technically - especially Martinez.

Separately, two other points:

(i) you imply that Rodgers is in the Guardiola school - he might have initially arrived with those ideas - but we've played a more counter-attacking than a possession style game this season - with the midfield really providing endeavour rather than creativitiy - Gerrard's creativity is conducive to the counter-attacking game, but not really to a slow, patient game. We may evolve into that team eventually, but that'd require significant changes in personnel - Allen and Henderson are nowhere near the technical level of Xavi or Iniesta or even perhaps Schweinsteiger or Kroos. And Gerrard isn't a game controlling playmaker either. The point really is that we're unlikely to try and become puritans- we obviously need more technically competent players in midfield, but we'll probably try to strike a balance in terms of skill, graft and physicality.

(ii) for the DM point you've made a few times now - I love the idea of a regista - it's probably my favourite position in football - and I love having the idea of having your deepest lying midfielder being the metronome of your team. Having said that - when a number of people have clamoured for a DM in the past, it's because Lucas in that position wasn't performing the role of either a regista or a specialist DM. Gerrard has to an extent solved this issue, but not entirely satisfactorily - his defensive understanding of the game isn't there yet (not that I'm blaming him - he's only played this position for 6 months) and his ability to control the game is still strewn by attempts to be too ambitious. He is probably likely to continue playing there, but he's certainly not going to play every game next season. We really need to think hard about who's going to come in his place when he's absent (and when he eventually retires) - this may not necessary be a 'DM', but it will certainly need to be someone who can play the holding position - whether as a regista or an out and out DM. I am loathe to put someone like Lucas in there who can do neither particularly well.

 

[StevieM]

I'm not sure whether I entirely agree with the above assessment of Lucas.

The 5 games over Xmas where Gerrard was replaced by Lucas at DM yielded 3 wins & 2 defeats - the defeats being away to Man City & Chelsea - our 2 hardest away games - and we played well.

The problem with Lucas is he's not good enough to play in the Henderson/Allen/Coutinho positions - not that he can't contribute at DM.

 

[dmishra]

I'm not sure whether I entirely agree with the above assessment of Lucas.

The 5 games over Xmas where Gerrard was replaced by Lucas at DM yielded 3 wins & 2 defeats - the defeats being away to Man City & Chelsea - our 2 hardest away games - and we played well.

The problem with Lucas is he's not good enough to play in the Henderson/Allen/Coutinho positions - not that he can't contribute at DM.

My idea wasn't to spark a debate about Lucas! It's been done about 45821 times.

I was just pointing out to rurik that the fact that the debate exists is why so many people wanted a new holding midfielder/DM.

 

[StevieM]

My idea wasn't to spark a debate about Lucas! It's been done about 45821 times.

I was just pointing out to rurik that the fact that the debate exists is why so many people wanted a new holding midfielder/DM.

Fair enough.

 

[keniget]

Good post @dmishra

 

[rurikbird]

I really don't watch much of Barca, but how creative is Busquets really? He's certainly not a regista in the mould of Xabi or Pirlo from his Milan days. You're implying that he's a significantly better playmaker than Martinez, Luiz and Song - all of whom are pretty competent technically - especially Martinez.

Separately, two other points:

(i) you imply that Rodgers is in the Guardiola school - he might have initially arrived with those ideas - but we've played a more counter-attacking than a possession style game this season - with the midfield really providing endeavour rather than creativitiy - Gerrard's creativity is conducive to the counter-attacking game, but not really to a slow, patient game. We may evolve into that team eventually, but that'd require significant changes in personnel - Allen and Henderson are nowhere near the technical level of Xavi or Iniesta or even perhaps Schweinsteiger or Kroos. And Gerrard isn't a game controlling playmaker either. The point really is that we're unlikely to try and become puritans- we obviously need more technically competent players in midfield, but we'll probably try to strike a balance in terms of skill, graft and physicality.

(ii) for the DM point you've made a few times now - I love the idea of a regista - it's probably my favourite position in football - and I love having the idea of having your deepest lying midfielder being the metronome of your team. Having said that - when a number of people have clamoured for a DM in the past, it's because Lucas in that position wasn't performing the role of either a regista or a specialist DM. Gerrard has to an extent solved this issue, but not entirely satisfactorily - his defensive understanding of the game isn't there yet (not that I'm blaming him - he's only played this position for 6 months) and his ability to control the game is still strewn by attempts to be too ambitious. He is probably likely to continue playing there, but he's certainly not going to play every game next season. We really need to think hard about who's going to come in his place when he's absent (and when he eventually retires) - this may not necessary be a 'DM', but it will certainly need to be someone who can play the holding position - whether as a regista or an out and out DM. I am loathe to put someone like Lucas in there who can do neither particularly well.

I think Lucas is a pretty good DM. I don't know why you would be "loathe" to play him in the position where he is clearly useful and knows what he is doing. I don't know if Lucas will be happy with the back-up to Gerrard role, but if he is – I don't think we'll find someone much better for that role. Yes, his style is a bit different to Gerrard's, but it also fits the way we play. I posted this analysis before: basically we tend to concede less when Lucas plays as DM and score more when Gerrard plays there. What I don't want to see is Lucas and Gerrard playing in midfield together.

 

[StevieM]

I think Lucas is a pretty good DM. I don't know why you would be "loathe" to play him in the position where he is clearly useful and knows what he is doing. I don't know if Lucas will be happy with the back-up to Gerrard role, but if he is – I don't think we'll find someone much better for that role. Yes, his style is a bit different to Gerrard's, but it also fits the way we play. I posted this analysis before: basically we tend to concede less when Lucas plays as DM and score more when Gerrard plays there. What I don't want to see is Lucas and Gerrard playing in midfield together.

I agree with this 100%

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

My idea wasn't to spark a debate about Lucas! It's been done about 45821 times.

I was just pointing out to rurik that the fact that the debate exists is why so many people wanted a new holding midfielder/DM.

I can pretty much guarantee it'll turn into that soon, despite your best intentions to avoid that. 😉

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

What I don't want to see is Lucas and Gerrard playing in midfield together.

I think there might be a scenario for that. When Rodgers first arrived, he talked a lot about the midfield triangle with its flexible inversions - 1-2 or 2-1 depending on whether we wanted more numbers in attack or to get a bit more solid and defensive. I don't think we've seen him do it that much this season though, even though we've been panicky after conceding a few times, if I'm remembering correctly.

In theory, a Lucas-Gerrard CM pairing at the base of the triangle should give you the defensive contribution from Lucas (if he can avoid silly fouls in front of the box) and Gerrard's distribution from the back to start a counter to relieve pressure. In a 4-2-3-1, that would still give you numbers in the midfield, depending on whether you tuck in the two wide players. All paper talk of course. 😉

It's a special circumstance that would see it used though, e.g. when we're under pressure (because we're nuts capable of collapsing with a 2-0 or 3-0 lead), or when we need to hold on for a result.

It isn't something I'd like us to use that much, as I prefer a more attacking slant to the team like we have now, but I wouldn't rule out seeing that used under the circumstances above.

 

[rurikbird]

I think there might be a scenario for that. When Rodgers first arrived, he talked a lot about the midfield triangle with its flexible inversions - 1-2 or 2-1 depending on whether we wanted more numbers in attack or to get a bit more solid and defensive. I don't think we've seen him do it that much this season though, even though we've been panicky after conceding a few times, if I'm remembering correctly.

In theory, a Lucas-Gerrard CM pairing at the base of the triangle should give you the defensive contribution from Lucas (if he can avoid silly fouls in front of the box) and Gerrard's distribution from the back to start a counter to relieve pressure. In a 4-2-3-1, that would still give you numbers in the midfield, depending on whether you tuck in the two wide players. All paper talk of course. 😉

It's a special circumstance that would see it used though, e.g. when we're under pressure (because we're nuts capable of collapsing with a 2-0 or 3-0 lead), or when we need to hold on for a result.

It isn't something I'd like us to use that much, as I prefer a more attacking slant to the team like we have now, but I wouldn't rule out seeing that used under the circumstances above.

Agreed. There were times when we were defending the lead under pressure this season and Gerrard was looking tired and I was screaming for Rodgers to put Lucas in – but he never did and it usually worked out fine in the end. The only defensive move he did consistently was to bring on a 3rd CB for the last 5 minutes to help with aerial duels.

But I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of defensive set-up at times next season.

 

[Ryan]

Rurik knows his stuff.

 

[King Binny]

[article=http://www.marca.com/2014/05/11/en/football/barcelona/1399841437.html]Javier Mascherano has dropped the spoiler that he may be leaving Barcelona at the end of the current season. The Argentine hinted that the last Spanish league game at Camp Nou - the Atlético championship decider - will be his last match with the club.

"It's great what we've got coming up this week and over the weekend. For some of us, it may be our last game at the club, so it will be a very nice way to say goodbye", the defender revealed.

There has been talk in recent weeks about a possible move for the Argentine centre-back to Napoli, headed up by Rafael Benítez, who coached Mascherano for a number of years at Liverpool.

The former River Plate player expressed his happiness about going into the final game of the season with a chance of winning 'la Liga'. "We only have one result that will secure it for us, and Atlético have two, but if you had told us we would be here a week ago, we would have been really happy", he said.[/article]