So at the moment it seems that our search for a top-class deep-lying playmaker is coming down to these two. LFC has been interested in Ruben Neves even before Klopp arrived and today the interwebs are full of reports about possible negotiations. Meanwhile, others have said that Jorginho is our top midfield target and from everything I've seen the interest in genuine. So let's compare.
[xtable=skin1|border:2|cellpadding:5|cellspacing:5|458x335]
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=center} {/td}
{td=center}Jorginho{/td}
{td=center}Ruben Neves{/td}
{/tr}
{tr=center}
{td=center}Age{/td}
{td=center}26{/td}
{td=center}21{/td}
{/tr}
{tr=center}
{td}Height{/td}
{td}180cm{/td}
{td}180cm{/td}
{/tr}
{tr=center}
{td}Weight{/td}
{td}65kg{/td}
{td}80kg{/td}
{/tr}
{tr=center}
{td}Games this season{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}39{/td}
{/tr}
{tr=center}
{td}Goals{/td}
{td}4 (all penalties){/td}
{td}6{/td}
{/tr}
{tr=center}
{td}Assists{/td}
{td}4{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
The stats above illustrate this quite nicely. Jorginho plays a lot more passes per game (including forward passes), but average pass length is shorter. He creates twice as many chances per game as Neves and the average pass completion is slightly higher. I have no idea whether all things equal Klopp prefers "Portuguese-Spanish" or "Brazilian-Italian" approach, but I suspect the latter must appeal to him because of its efficient simplicity. I'm sure Neves will keep improving his efficiency and assist numbers as he matures, but at the moment I think it's clear that Jorginho is a better and more consistent creator of chances.
2. Goal-scoring
Neves wins hands down in this department – Jorginho used to contribute a couple of goals per season in his younger days at Verona, but has not scored a single goal from open play in 3 seasons for Napoli. Neves scored "only" 4 career goals for Porto, but he's already got 6 for Wolves, all excellent strikes from outside the penalty area (I think 2 were direct free-kicks and 4 from open play). I'm not sure he will score at the same rate at the higher league level, with better goalkeepers and less time on the ball, but his ball-striking technique is really sweet and he should be good for at least 2-3 goals every season – not absolutely essential for a DLP, but a useful extra weapon to have.
3. Athleticism and defense
Athleticism is where Jorginho's weakness really lies. He is amazingly physically unremarkable for a footballer, same height as Neves but weighing a full 15 kg (!) less, and he's not one of those players who can compensate for a lack of height or muscle mass by a low center of gravity. In the latest game I saw him (England-Italy friendly) I was also struck by his lack of acceleration – I don't know if he wasn't fully fit or it was more exposed against physically powerful English midfielders than in the games I've watched in Serie A, but it was noticeable and concerning. In contrast Neves seems to be holding his own physically just fine in the Championship and will get even stronger as he matures.
So why are the stats above so close? Neves is just about even with Jorginho in % of total duels won and also a bit behind him in tackles won and lost and interceptions (look at the current season, the season before is too small of a sample size for Neves for such infrequent events as tackles). This speaks first of all to Neves's relative lack of experience – whereas Jorginho is squeezing near maximum from his limited athletic abilities, knowing when to tackle and where to look for an interception, Neves still has a lot of room for improvement in that area. If he is smart (which seems to be the case) and well-coached, he should get better on the defensive end year by year, but I don't expect miraculously fast progress. In 5 years he will almost certainly be a better defender than Jorginho is now, but in the short term it will not be so clear-cut; one will have the edge through physicality, another by guile and experience.
Another factor (admittedly speculative on my part) is whether Jorginho can "bulk up" a bit if he moves to England and goes through the full pre-season here – we all saw with Salah how he seemed to gain tremendous upper body strength as the season progressed, in the first few weeks he was routinely shoved off the ball and now he's strong as a small ox. I don't know whether it's the different nutrition, exercise regimen, pharmacology or who knows what else you lot have here on the island, but I've seen it too many times – a player from the continent or South America moves to England, initially looks thin and is pushed around, then if (and it's a big "if") he survives his first season here, he becomes much stronger and if he goes in the opposite direction, he bullies the fuck out of everybody on the continent. Even a marginal gain would be huge in Jorginho's case; a player with Mascherano's body and Jorginho's brain and technique would be the best DM in the world, by far.
4. Availability and intangibles
Both players seem to be open to the idea of playing for Liverpool. Neves is rumoured to have a £40M release clause, which seems almost cheap by today's standards; Wolves might want to keep him but Mendes holds all the cards. Jorginho has only a couple of years left on his contract and if he really wants to leave Napoli will have to sell this summer for maximum value. A few other teams (United, Arsenal) are interested in him, so he won't come cheap, £57M has been quoted as Napoli's asking price, but I suspect somewhere around £50M should do it.
My main concern with Neves is that he seems to be set (and guided with iron hand by Mendes) on the following career path: Porto-Wolves-Liverpool-Real Madrid/Barca. The cheap-ish release clause at Wolves (if true) is there to accelerate the next step in the career progression, the one to an exciting high-profile attacking team (you can substitute Dortmund or Monaco for Liverpool here), which will hopefully make the best use of his client's qualities and eventually lead to the mega-transfer where the really big payoff that greases the wheels of Mendes' empire will happen. The worst thing about it is that there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop it; not even winning the Champions League and the Premier League will diminish the pull of Madrid or Barca for a Portuguese player (and if that doesn't work out there is always PSG). When they decide the time is right, we will be in the position the Wolves are now, trying to hold on to one of our best players, but with the same end result as we had with Alonso and Mascherano and Suarez and Coutinho – a pile of cash in hand and a huge hole to fill in the squad (I'm sure Mendes will generously offer one of his next proteges to fill the gap, maybe the poor sod Talisca again?).
I don't know about you, but I have an instinctive aversion to playing this kind of game; you don't set the rules, so you always lose. The bottom line is that no matter what we do, the best years of Ruben Neves' career will be spent somewhere else. So should we even try? Perhaps we should: after all I'm happy Xabi played here, even though the team kind of crumbled after he left. However there is a difference: Xabi came at 23, not 21, so even if Neves becomes as good a player, we will have more of the development and less of the reward. And the problem with midfield playmakers is that there are so few of them and they are so hard to replace – removing one player is like removing the brain of a team. So if possible, I prefer a permanent rather then temporary brain transplant, if that makes sense.
5. Conclusion
There is no perfection in football transfers, as in football itself – it's always about pros and cons and compromises. If we decide on Jorginho we will have to assume the risk of a player not fitting in in a more physical league, another Aquilani, Luis Alberto or Aspas. What gives me hope about Jorginho though is that he seems mentally tougher than either of those 3 and Klopp will integrate him a system well suited to his attacking qualities. If we go for Neves, we'll get an excellent young player at an acceptable price, but with the risk of becoming a pawn in somebody else's game. There are also other alternatives we've been linked to: Max Meyer, Lewis Cook and maybe a few others we haven't heard about yet. The positive way to look at it is that no matter who we get will add quality to our midfield passing and we also have Keita coming in with his dynamism and grit. We're on the right track as a club and I trust LFC's coaching and scouting team to make the right decision.
[xtable=skin1|border:2|cellpadding:5|cellspacing:5|458x335]
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=center} {/td}
{td=center}Jorginho{/td}
{td=center}Ruben Neves{/td}
{/tr}
{tr=center}
{td=center}Age{/td}
{td=center}26{/td}
{td=center}21{/td}
{/tr}
{tr=center}
{td}Height{/td}
{td}180cm{/td}
{td}180cm{/td}
{/tr}
{tr=center}
{td}Weight{/td}
{td}65kg{/td}
{td}80kg{/td}
{/tr}
{tr=center}
{td}Games this season{/td}
{td}34{/td}
{td}39{/td}
{/tr}
{tr=center}
{td}Goals{/td}
{td}4 (all penalties){/td}
{td}6{/td}
{/tr}
{tr=center}
{td}Assists{/td}
{td}4{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]
- Passing
The stats above illustrate this quite nicely. Jorginho plays a lot more passes per game (including forward passes), but average pass length is shorter. He creates twice as many chances per game as Neves and the average pass completion is slightly higher. I have no idea whether all things equal Klopp prefers "Portuguese-Spanish" or "Brazilian-Italian" approach, but I suspect the latter must appeal to him because of its efficient simplicity. I'm sure Neves will keep improving his efficiency and assist numbers as he matures, but at the moment I think it's clear that Jorginho is a better and more consistent creator of chances.
2. Goal-scoring
Neves wins hands down in this department – Jorginho used to contribute a couple of goals per season in his younger days at Verona, but has not scored a single goal from open play in 3 seasons for Napoli. Neves scored "only" 4 career goals for Porto, but he's already got 6 for Wolves, all excellent strikes from outside the penalty area (I think 2 were direct free-kicks and 4 from open play). I'm not sure he will score at the same rate at the higher league level, with better goalkeepers and less time on the ball, but his ball-striking technique is really sweet and he should be good for at least 2-3 goals every season – not absolutely essential for a DLP, but a useful extra weapon to have.
3. Athleticism and defense
Athleticism is where Jorginho's weakness really lies. He is amazingly physically unremarkable for a footballer, same height as Neves but weighing a full 15 kg (!) less, and he's not one of those players who can compensate for a lack of height or muscle mass by a low center of gravity. In the latest game I saw him (England-Italy friendly) I was also struck by his lack of acceleration – I don't know if he wasn't fully fit or it was more exposed against physically powerful English midfielders than in the games I've watched in Serie A, but it was noticeable and concerning. In contrast Neves seems to be holding his own physically just fine in the Championship and will get even stronger as he matures.
So why are the stats above so close? Neves is just about even with Jorginho in % of total duels won and also a bit behind him in tackles won and lost and interceptions (look at the current season, the season before is too small of a sample size for Neves for such infrequent events as tackles). This speaks first of all to Neves's relative lack of experience – whereas Jorginho is squeezing near maximum from his limited athletic abilities, knowing when to tackle and where to look for an interception, Neves still has a lot of room for improvement in that area. If he is smart (which seems to be the case) and well-coached, he should get better on the defensive end year by year, but I don't expect miraculously fast progress. In 5 years he will almost certainly be a better defender than Jorginho is now, but in the short term it will not be so clear-cut; one will have the edge through physicality, another by guile and experience.
Another factor (admittedly speculative on my part) is whether Jorginho can "bulk up" a bit if he moves to England and goes through the full pre-season here – we all saw with Salah how he seemed to gain tremendous upper body strength as the season progressed, in the first few weeks he was routinely shoved off the ball and now he's strong as a small ox. I don't know whether it's the different nutrition, exercise regimen, pharmacology or who knows what else you lot have here on the island, but I've seen it too many times – a player from the continent or South America moves to England, initially looks thin and is pushed around, then if (and it's a big "if") he survives his first season here, he becomes much stronger and if he goes in the opposite direction, he bullies the fuck out of everybody on the continent. Even a marginal gain would be huge in Jorginho's case; a player with Mascherano's body and Jorginho's brain and technique would be the best DM in the world, by far.
4. Availability and intangibles
Both players seem to be open to the idea of playing for Liverpool. Neves is rumoured to have a £40M release clause, which seems almost cheap by today's standards; Wolves might want to keep him but Mendes holds all the cards. Jorginho has only a couple of years left on his contract and if he really wants to leave Napoli will have to sell this summer for maximum value. A few other teams (United, Arsenal) are interested in him, so he won't come cheap, £57M has been quoted as Napoli's asking price, but I suspect somewhere around £50M should do it.
My main concern with Neves is that he seems to be set (and guided with iron hand by Mendes) on the following career path: Porto-Wolves-Liverpool-Real Madrid/Barca. The cheap-ish release clause at Wolves (if true) is there to accelerate the next step in the career progression, the one to an exciting high-profile attacking team (you can substitute Dortmund or Monaco for Liverpool here), which will hopefully make the best use of his client's qualities and eventually lead to the mega-transfer where the really big payoff that greases the wheels of Mendes' empire will happen. The worst thing about it is that there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop it; not even winning the Champions League and the Premier League will diminish the pull of Madrid or Barca for a Portuguese player (and if that doesn't work out there is always PSG). When they decide the time is right, we will be in the position the Wolves are now, trying to hold on to one of our best players, but with the same end result as we had with Alonso and Mascherano and Suarez and Coutinho – a pile of cash in hand and a huge hole to fill in the squad (I'm sure Mendes will generously offer one of his next proteges to fill the gap, maybe the poor sod Talisca again?).
I don't know about you, but I have an instinctive aversion to playing this kind of game; you don't set the rules, so you always lose. The bottom line is that no matter what we do, the best years of Ruben Neves' career will be spent somewhere else. So should we even try? Perhaps we should: after all I'm happy Xabi played here, even though the team kind of crumbled after he left. However there is a difference: Xabi came at 23, not 21, so even if Neves becomes as good a player, we will have more of the development and less of the reward. And the problem with midfield playmakers is that there are so few of them and they are so hard to replace – removing one player is like removing the brain of a team. So if possible, I prefer a permanent rather then temporary brain transplant, if that makes sense.
5. Conclusion
There is no perfection in football transfers, as in football itself – it's always about pros and cons and compromises. If we decide on Jorginho we will have to assume the risk of a player not fitting in in a more physical league, another Aquilani, Luis Alberto or Aspas. What gives me hope about Jorginho though is that he seems mentally tougher than either of those 3 and Klopp will integrate him a system well suited to his attacking qualities. If we go for Neves, we'll get an excellent young player at an acceptable price, but with the risk of becoming a pawn in somebody else's game. There are also other alternatives we've been linked to: Max Meyer, Lewis Cook and maybe a few others we haven't heard about yet. The positive way to look at it is that no matter who we get will add quality to our midfield passing and we also have Keita coming in with his dynamism and grit. We're on the right track as a club and I trust LFC's coaching and scouting team to make the right decision.
Last edited:
