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Midfield for the decisive stretch

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rurikbird

rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
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Here are the current basic stats for our central midfielders this season:

Henderson 3262 minutes, 3 goals, 6 assists
Fabinho 3199 minutes, 7 goals (3 from PKs), 1 assist
Thiago 1753 minutes, 2 goals, 3 assists
Keita 1584 minutes, 3 goals, 2 assists
Ox 1525 minutes, 3 goals, 2 assists
Jones 1366 minutes, 1 goal, 3 assists
Milner 1107 minutes, 3 assists
Morton 544 minutes
Elliott 520 minutes, 1 goal

As we’re entering the final stretch of the season, it looks like a clear pecking order in midfield has emerged.

##1-2 is definitely Fabinho and Thiago, in whichever order you prefer. Both are key to the way we play and their absence is keenly felt, even though we do have quality replacements.

Henderson and Keita seem to be neck-in-neck for the 3rd midfield spot at this point in time; I genuinely don’t know which of these two players Klopp would choose in a hypothetical CL final vs City. Henderson has played twice as many minutes as Keita this season, so he’s been much more important to the team overall, but Naby is finishing the season strongly and seems to be finally earning Klopp’s trust.

Jones is now a clear #5; Klopp has no issue playing him against even the strongest opposition and challenges him to perform in a variety of roles. Milner is at #6 for his experience, although his legs seem to be mostly gone; Ox and Elliott might not be used at all from this point unless there is an injury crisis and Morton is back in the U21’s and is probably going on loan next season.

It makes sense for a manager to tighten the squad for the decisive stretch of the season; to call only on the players he really trusts. We also seem to be once again relying on the front 3 and the full-backs to produce the lion’s share of goals and assists with the early-season experiments with a more expansive and attack-minded midfield curbed in favour of greater control and solidity. Last time one of the midfielders scored from open play was 17 games ago vs Burnley in early February.

In some way the current state of our midfield reminds me of Real Madrid - we have similar combinations of aging world-class midfield controllers (Modric, Kroos) with some energetic, but somewhat unreliable younger players (Valverde, Camavinga) all anchored by an irreplaceable DM linchpin (Casemiro) plus a sparkle of sparingly used creative types (Isco etc). Depending on the specific combination of personnel involved, this midfield can hurt opponents in different ways, by outpassing or outfighting or outrunning them, but it can also be outpassed and outfought and outrun - there is no one go-to formula like we had in 2018-20, the manager has to constantly shift between different modes of play to try to find an advantage. As usual, everyone’s freshness and fitness will be important to give Klopp the best midfield options for any given situation, but I have a feeling that this season and the number of trophies we win will be mostly decided by the front 5 (or any 3 of them who are together on the pitch) and their coolness and freshness in front of goal. After some early-season struggles and uncertainty followed by periods of unusual attacking productivity, the midfield is once again settling in for a mostly supporting role.
 
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It's Thiago and Fabinho plus one other. Those two are a level above our other choices.

Difficult choice between Hendo and Keita but based on his impressive performance in the semi final, I'm edging towards starting Keita against City in any potential CL final against them. Tough on Hendo though.

Of course, we all know there will be no such final...
 
It's got to be Fabinho Thiago Keita unless one of them is injured or desperately in need of rest.

Watching the Man United game, it almost seems like this team has progressed beyond Henderson. The energy of an on-form Keita is the perfect partner for Thiago. There was a 20 minute spell in the first half of the semi final against City where they didnt seem to know how to deal with Keita. Long may that last.
 
rurikbird said:
... We also seem to be once again relying on the front 3 and the full-backs to produce the lion’s share of goals and assists with the early-season experiments with a more expansive and attack-minded midfield curbed in favour of greater control and solidity. Last time one of the midfielders scored from open play was 17 games ago vs Burnley in early February...

... As usual, everyone’s freshness and fitness will be important to give Klopp the best midfield options for any given situation, but I have a feeling that this season and the number of trophies we win will be mostly decided by the front 5 (or any 3 of them who are together on the pitch) and their coolness and freshness in front of goal. After some early-season struggles and periods of unusual attacking productivity, the midfield is once again settling in for a mostly supporting role.
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These two paragraphs make complete sense since the signing of Diaz and Jota's form. Ultimately we don't need to go looking for goals from midfield and they are there to harry / win the ball back / be creative and assist the forwards more so than to score, or get into goal-scoring positions, themselves.

We have such variety and quality up front that the midfield doesn't need to contribute too much in the form of goals or even assists. It brings a wonderful balance to the team because our midfielders are now rarely caught out stranded upfield and they can fill in for / support the FBs. Which in turn enables our defence to concentrate on their game rather than worrying about the midfield. With the added benefit that it also enables Matip and to a lesser extent VvD or Konate, to go on unexpected runs that create confusion in the opposition's midfield/defence.
 
JohnnyRocket said:
It's got to be Fabinho Thiago Keita unless one of them is injured or desperately in need of rest.

Watching the Man United game, it almost seems like this team has progressed beyond Henderson. The energy of an on-form Keita is the perfect partner for Thiago. There was a 20 minute spell in the first half of the semi final against City where they didnt seem to know how to deal with Keita. Long may that last.
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That is true, but don’t forget that experienced players have an advantage by being able to better adjust during different situations in the game. Keita might well be more effective than Hendo when the conditions are right, but when something changes (as it did in the 2nd half vs City) his performance can drop off a cliff. He still has to learn a lot about the game.

I do often think about the game away at Inter when Hendo probably delivered his best performance of the season in just 30 minutes. He watched the game from the bench, knew exactly what the game needed and provided it. That’s the kind of football know-how that’s totally invaluable - the question is whether he can still do it for 90 minutes in a high-intensity game.
 
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rurikbird said:
That is true, but don’t forget that experienced players have an advantage by being able to better adjust during different situations in the game. Keita might well be more effective than Hendo when the conditions are right, but when something changes (as it did in the 2nd half vs City) his performance can drop off a cliff. It’s a tough choice, but yeah - ideally Hendo plays for 30 minutes at the end of a game like he did away at Inter, which was probably his best performance of the season. He watched the game from the bench; knew exactly what was needed and delivered it.
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Can't argue with that
 
rurikbird said:
That is true, but don’t forget that experienced players have an advantage by being able to better adjust during different situations in the game. Keita might well be more effective than Hendo when the conditions are right, but when something changes (as it did in the 2nd half vs City) his performance can drop off a cliff. It’s a tough choice, but yeah - ideally Hendo plays for 30 minutes at the end of a game like he did away at Inter, which was probably his best performance of the season. He watched the game from the bench; knew exactly what was needed and delivered it.
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The question is why did Keita's performance nosedive for the first 15 mins of that second half? For me it wasn't him in isolation, everybody seemed to think the game was won and would continue in the same vein as the first half. Nobody is going to continue at that high a level if those around him are also dropping off.

The collective needed a kick up the butt which Hendo gave them. However I doubt Hendo is capable of performing in the way the midfield of Fabs/Thiago & Keita did in that first half, and Hendo is certainly not as good a ballwinner, or as skilful with his feet, he supplies the energy and is a better cover for Fabs. For those reasons I'd go with that trio of FTK to start any potential final vs City.
 
Stevesquash said:
I think our creativity is waay better than it has been though.

Even in our pomp we've been mostly reliant on Trent and robbos crossing. Plus brilliance from the front 3.

Now we find space through the middle and between the lines so much more (a la your avatar @rurikbird) and that's due to our other 2 world class playmakers. Thiago and big Joel Matip
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Matip IS a playmaker. Madness innit?
 
There has been a growing inconsistently in Henderson's game this season. There are games when he's bossing play, but there have been periods where he had been ineffective. Too early to say if he's legs are going, or if he just need a rest - but I'm glad Keita is managing to stay more robust and has found some form. He's proving to be the more dynamic player both in his offensive pressing and general play, and should be the player to start any big game.
 
All this on the back of 1-2 games, and suddenly Hendo's prowess is on the wane and Thiago is a world-beater again. Not too long ago, he was literally dead on 6CM.

At least one thing that's consistent every season, and that's our fickle minds.
 
My_Blood_Bleeds_Red said:
All this on the back of 1-2 games, and suddenly Hendo's prowess is on the wane and Thiago is a world-beater again. Not too long ago, he was literally dead on 6CM.

At least one thing that's consistent every season, and that's our fickle minds.
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So you disagree then and Hendo should always start?
 




He's pretty ridiculous, isn't he? Passing is one thing, but did you see some of those tackles? I scared my dog shouting and clapping after one of them.

Also have to say, Hendo brought it last night. After a decent start of the season and a lull in the middle, he is doing his best to finish the season strongly. The fact that 1st goal was the result of Hendo's cross was not a coincidence – he was relentless and got his reward.

And Fabinho – what can you say? MOTM for me; he bullied Villareal into submission. Overall this was the best midfield 3 performance in a long time.
 
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Missing in action:

Ox, last league appearance against Norwich, mid Feb. Last app against Forest in March.
Minamino, last league appearance against Norwich, mid Feb. Last app against Forest in March.
Elliott, last league appearance against Leicester, mid Feb. Last app against Forest in March.

It's kinda bad when only backup keepers have featured less frequently.

Elliot is a kid, Minamino is a cheap squad player but what is the point of Ox?
Imagine having a decent DM who could give Fabs a rest.
 
Modo said:
Missing in action:

Ox, last league appearance against Norwich, mid Feb. Last app against Forest in March.
Minamino, last league appearance against Norwich, mid Feb. Last app against Forest in March.
Elliott, last league appearance against Leicester, mid Feb. Last app against Forest in March.

It's kinda bad when only backup keepers have featured less frequently.

Elliot is a kid, Minamino is a cheap squad player but what is the point of Ox?
Imagine having a decent DM who could give Fabs a rest.
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What’s the point of this post Modo?

The squad players did their job when we needed them too - the business end of the season is about consistently getting the result we need, with all our key players being fit.

I’m fucking delighted Ox & Mini are nowhere near the bench - because it means we used them when we had to and when it wasn’t critical that our A-Team was needed - you can tell that by the fact we’re challenging for every trophy we could possibly win.

There are others that played their part - Gomez, Morton, Gordon, the Greek, etc.

Whats’s almost more important is that none of those players designated to squad roles are whinging and whining like biatches about not getting a game.

Rejoice that we have expensive players that can’t get near the squad - it means we’re great.

I said earlier in the season if we were to achieve anything this season - everyone had a part to play - and they all have.
 
StevieM said:
What’s the point of this post Modo?

The squad players did their job when we needed them too - the business end of the season is about consistently getting the result we need, with all our key players being fit.

I’m fucking delighted Ox & Mini are nowhere near the bench - because it means we used them when we had to and when it wasn’t critical that our A-Team was needed - you can tell that by the fact we’re challenging for every trophy we could possibly win.

There are others that played their part - Gomez, Morton, Gordon, the Greek, etc.

Whats’s almost more important is that none of those players designated to squad roles are whinging and whining like biatches about not getting a game.

Rejoice that we have expensive players that can’t get near the squad - it means we’re great.

I said earlier in the season if we were to achieve anything this season - everyone had a part to play - and they all have.
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My point is that we have two senior players (excluding Elliott because he's a kid) who are totally out of the rotation. Yes, I agree that it's good that they're not playing because that means that every game is important, but it's such a waste. Imagine if we had a DM who could allow one of our most important players a rest?
I mean it's all good now, but you can't disregard the fact that we've been very lucky with injuries too. We're just one or two injuries away from a disaster in midfield.
 
Modo said:
My point is that we have two senior players (excluding Elliott because he's a kid) who are totally out of the rotation. Yes, I agree that it's good that they're not playing because that means that every game is important, but it's such a waste. Imagine if we had a DM who could allow one of our most important players a rest?
I mean it's all good now, but you can't disregard the fact that we've been very lucky with injuries too. We're just one or two injuries away from a disaster in midfield.
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But one of those you mentioned, Minamino, was a major part of our success in the league cup, our first trophy of the season. He's played his part already. Elliot was getting a decent number of games ahead of Jones but then had the worst injury of his young career by snapping his ankle. He's not going to be used frequently this season after that.
Ox has gradually lost his place in the team over the last 5 years after a variety of injuries. He did extremely well in the early days for us, but those days are gone (along with his pace), and he's completely lost his value. Thus we haven't been able to move him on.
If you can't be positive during an unprecedented period/opportunity like we're experiencing at the moment, I've no idea what would. Enjoy the moment Modo!
 
Modo said:
My point is that we have two senior players (excluding Elliott because he's a kid) who are totally out of the rotation. Yes, I agree that it's good that they're not playing because that means that every game is important, but it's such a waste. Imagine if we had a DM who could allow one of our most important players a rest?
I mean it's all good now, but you can't disregard the fact that we've been very lucky with injuries too. We're just one or two injuries away from a disaster in midfield.
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As are virtually every team you'd care to name (two injuries - not one which would be a blip). If it happens (as it did to us last year with the defence) then that is likely a once-in-a-decade situation that really can't be planned for.
 
juniormember said:
But one of those you mentioned, Minamino, was a major part of our success in the league cup, our first trophy of the season. He's played his part already. Elliot was getting a decent number of games ahead of Jones but then had the worst injury of his young career by snapping his ankle. He's not going to be used frequently this season after that.
Ox has gradually lost his place in the team over the last 5 years after a variety of injuries. He did extremely well in the early days for us, but those days are gone (along with his pace), and he's completely lost his value. Thus we haven't been able to move him on.
If you can't be positive during an unprecedented period/opportunity like we're experiencing at the moment, I've no idea what would. Enjoy the moment Modo!
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I am enjoying the moment.
It's not really a moan, just something I've been thinking about these past few weeks now that we have a game every 3 days.
We can rotate our defenders, we can rotate our attackers but we are asking a lot from our midfielders. This while having a £40 mill player out of the rotation.
And you're right about Minamino. He has played his part and Diaz joined in January so he doesn't bother me as much.
 
Modo said:
My point is that we have two senior players (excluding Elliott because he's a kid) who are totally out of the rotation. Yes, I agree that it's good that they're not playing because that means that every game is important, but it's such a waste. Imagine if we had a DM who could allow one of our most important players a rest?
I mean it's all good now, but you can't disregard the fact that we've been very lucky with injuries too. We're just one or two injuries away from a disaster in midfield.
Click to expand...

Yesh, but what leads you to believe we’d keep a world class DM happy knowing he’s not likely to play in the event of injuries or a disaster.

The Greek hasn’t played despite Wee Robbo not being at his best, Milner hasn’t played (ok he is 85), Gomez hasn’t had a look in despite playing well, Lord Divock can barely get a game, Jones is hardly getting a sniff.

Lucky???? Last year we were unlucky with injuries - this year it’s been balanced.

We’re not 2 injuries from disaster - in the same way we weren’t facing a disaster during AFCON.
 
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