Barca clear out

[Mors]

I don't care what anyone says, but Mascherano is a beast. He's about 10x better than Lucas as a DM, or any other DM we've got for that matter. The last season he was here (before he turned into a cunt and fucked off) he romped home to an easy player of the season in Morse's rankings. I guarantee Lucas will never ever do that. So for Mascherano to do it as a DM is very impressive.
For me, we need someone that can stand infront of the back 4, tackle, mark and protect them in a disciplined manner as a priority. And receive the ball from them and play simple short passes to someone with a brain as a secondary role - Mascherano is marvellous at that.
Lucas does all of the above to an average level.
Gerrard is a marvellous passer of the ball, but his tackling and marking seems to be none existant, and he flaps under pressure all the time now.
Allen I think is a great little footballer, but he can't tackle or mark for fucking toffee.

I think if we got in a Mascherano, we could then flip that triangle round, play him or someone like him infront of the back 4 and not worry about protecting the back 4 (like we're constantly having to do with Lucas and Gerrard), and then play Gerrard further forward where his hollywood balls could be of even more use.

When Lucas or Gerrard are in the DM role, and the opponent gets a breakaway to run at the defence and the DM, every single time I think they'll do the lot of them.

I'd just like a destroyer in that role, like what Mascherano used to do - fuck people up, kick them up in the air without giving away freekicks like Lucas, and then pass a short ball to someone with a brain (like Alonso). Maybe that's 'old skool' now, but I think it worked excellently just a few seasons ago.

 

[FMSPWR]

Go back and watch the CL game vs Arsenal, the one where Walcott sprinted past everyone to set up Adebayor. Watch Mascherano's reaction when the ball went in (and the effort he made to get back), then tell me we don't need that passion and desire in the team

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

Allen I think is a great little footballer, but he can't tackle or mark for fucking toffee.

I think you've been deceived by his small size. He doesn't fly into sliding tackles like Mascherano, but he knows a thing or two about getting stuck in, tackling and wrestling the ball from opponents, or nicking in to steal them off their feet.

I don't have the stats on tackle success rates unfortunately (looks @King Binny), but just on tackle attempts alone, he averages 2.8 tackles a game, which puts him at 36th spot amongst all players in the league. He rises to 24th spot if minimum appearances are considered. Surprisingly, he's even ahead of Henderson (2.4) in that category.

Only Flanagan (3.5) and Lucas (3.4) average more tackles per game for us. Gerrard is just a position behind Allen. It'll be interesting to see the percentage of successful tackles for these guys, but that's pretty impressive for a 5' 6" flair player.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

By the way, speaking of average tackles - here's our midfielders' rankings in average tackles per game in the league, from the list of players who appeared in more games than the average no. of games played by everyone (sorry I don't know that number - isn't published):

Rank Player Avg.
7 Lucas Leiva 3.4
24 Joe Allen 2.8
25 Steven Gerrard 2.8
41 Jordan Henderson 2.4
48 Philippe Coutinho 2.3

No other club has as many midfielders in the top 50 in this category. If you just take any 3 guys from that group - which we normally do - we're looking at an average of 7.5 to 9 tackles put in by the midfielders per game. Across the major leagues in Europe, Liverpool ranks #11 in tackles per game, at 22.5 - the best of the Premier League teams.

Just interesting tidbits I guess.

 

[King Binny]

I don't have the stats on tackle success rates unfortunately (looks @King Binny), but just on tackle attempts alone, he averages 2.8 tackles a game, which puts him at 36th spot amongst all players in the league. He rises to 24th spot if minimum appearances are considered. Surprisingly, he's even ahead of Henderson (2.4) in that category.

Allen
Tackles Won 54
Tackles Lost 10
Tackles Won 84.4 %

Lucas
Tackles Won 65
Tackles Lost 24
Tackles Won 73 %

Gerrard
Tackles Won 67
Tackles Lost 26
Tackles Won 72 %

Henderson
Tackles Won 57
Tackles Lost 24
Tackles Won 70.4 %

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

Thanks @King Binny! You're the man. Bloody hell, more love for Allen! 🙂

 

[Judge Jules]

With Mascherano in our midfield there wouldn't have been anything like the gaps through midfield and on into the area that we've left open too often this season. IMO with him there taking care of business we'd have avoided defeat against Chelsea, beaten Palace and won the title. The other players we've got "in that position" (except that every player plays it a little differently, but still) haven't been enough.

 

[keniget]

Heh. @Binny is ace.

I had a lot of time for Maschareno whilst he was here and I think he's always been unfairly slated for his ability on the ball (or lackthereof).

That said, I wouldn't be interested now. He's 29, been playing in defence for the last few seasons, probably still doesn't want to live in the north west and above all else, I'd rather we went for a player that has a bit more refinement to his game.

 

[Best Believe It]

Go back and watch the CL game vs Arsenal, the one where Walcott sprinted past everyone to set up Adebayor. Watch Mascherano's reaction when the ball went in (and the effort he made to get back), then tell me we don't need that passion and desire in the team

I'd prefer someone who could pass well, read the game well and start moves; passion's irrelevant if you don't have the technical ability.

 

[Judge Jules]

Keni: agree in principle, but wouldn't rule the idea out completely if it were clear that he wanted to come and we drew a blank on other targets.

BBI: technical ability's equally irrelevant if you don't have the passion and the bottle. Mascherano can pass well enough to get the ball to others who can do real damage with it. Ideally I'd prefer a more all-round footballer too, but Mascher would defo improve the current side.

 

[King Binny]

Sidetracking a bit. 😳

All info available here

Schneiderlin
Tackles Won 86
Tackles Lost 26
Tackles Won (%) 76.8%

Barry
Tackles Won 66
Tackles Lost 19
Tackles Won (%) 77.6%

Paulinho
Tackles Won 51
Tackles Lost 13
Tackles Won (%) 79.7%

Fernandinho
Tackles Won 71
Tackles Lost 25
Tackles Won (%) 74%

Ramires
Tackles Won 66
Tackles Lost 19
Tackles Won (%) 77.6%

 

[dmishra]

I have no desire to bring Mascherano back, but just because he hasn't shone in a Barca midfield isn't reason for some mad revisionism.

He was an excellent DM, miles better than Lucas in most departments, and mostly at par in some of the departments Lucas was supposedly better at.

As for the question of needing a DM, you need to evaluate what you're doing with the midfield long-term. As it stands we have 4 available midfielders for 3 positions. That is suicide going into what will be a 50-60 game season. We need at least one top quality addition to that, and preferably a replacement for Lucas as well.

There's a strong argument for signing two versatile players who can play both Gerrard's role and Allen/Henderson's role. But I don't see why signing one specialist holding player (and that doesn't necessarily mean a 'defensive mid') and a specialist advanced CM (in the Allen/Henderson mould) is such a bad idea either.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

Sidetracking a bit. 😳

All info available here

Schneiderlin
Tackles Won 86
Tackles Lost 26
Tackles Won (%) 76.8%

Barry
Tackles Won 66
Tackles Lost 19
Tackles Won (%) 77.6%

Paulinho
Tackles Won 51
Tackles Lost 13
Tackles Won (%) 79.7%

Fernandinho
Tackles Won 71
Tackles Lost 25
Tackles Won (%) 74%

Ramires
Tackles Won 66
Tackles Lost 19
Tackles Won (%) 77.6%

Cheers again Binny. And this:

Ross Barkley
Games 34
Minutes 2,286
Tackles Won 26
Tackles Lost 7
Tackles Won (%) 78.8%

Lazy bastard. 😀

 

[gene hughes]

Judging a midfielder by how many tackles he makes is like judging a doctor by how many diseases he's caught.

 

[Hansern]

Schneiderlin is ace by the way. Wouldnt mind him in our team

 

[Judge Jules]

Agree. That would do very nicely indeed.

 

[StevieM]

Guys - Steven Gerrard occupies our DM position.

That's where Rodgers has played him for the last 2 years.

Rodgers is not going to flip that now & put a different DM behind him. He's not going to move Gerrard forward.

Gerrard's passing ability is a central component of how we play.

The only possible point to bringing in Mascherano would be as a direct replacement to Lucas.

Now - there's merit in that, but we should be sorting other, more pressing problems out first.

 

[rurikbird]

Wow, it's good to see some sanity restored on these boards. Now people don't want to live in the past midfield glories, or replace Lucas with any available DM on the market (no matter the expense), or dream about Gerrard getting moved forward (and rediscovering his attacking virtues simply by change of position). And people even stopped asking "what does Allen actually do?".

I think we are all less susceptible to media hype now too; players are judged more on ability and stats and less on lazy stereotypes. We are also better at seeing through the agents' and owners' bullshit and posturing. At least I hope so.

 

[Judge Jules]

You've said something similar in another thread, and it puzzles me since I usually agree with most of what you say. Most other top sides consider it important to have some steel in midfield protecting their back four, even though most of them are a fair bit more secure than we are at the back. We on the other hand don't have enough of that steel in midfield because our existing options just aren't adequate, and that at a time when our back four has ultimately not been good enough either. If not a DM - and there are none better than Mascherano - what *should* we do?

 

[StevieM]

JJ - it's not that our options aren't good enough - it's that our manager doesn't set the team up where more than one DM is used.

We don't play like chelsea with 2 DM's sitting in from of hand back four.

Mascherano ended up playing as a CB at Barca because they couldn't squeeze him in to their midfield.

He's not getting a start for us unless Gerrard's not playing.

There's no use pretending he'd slot in elsewhere, because Rosgers isn't going to slot him in elsewhere - well certainly not regularly.

 

[redhorizon2]

You've said something similar in another thread, and it puzzles me since I usually agree with most of what you say. Most other top sides consider it important to have some steel in midfield protecting their back four, even though most of them are a fair bit more secure than we are at the back. We on the other hand don't have enough of that steel in midfield because our existing options just aren't adequate, and that at a time when our back four has ultimately not been good enough either. If not a DM - and there are none better than Mascherano - what *should* we do?

I think many of these guys think that our current personal is doing a terrific job in DM.

I remember how the team played when we had Mascher albeit under a different Manager, and if Lucas was doing his job properly I wouldn't have asked the question in the previous thread.

 

[Best Believe It]

Wow, it's good to see some sanity restored on these boards. Now people don't want to live in the past midfield glories, or replace Lucas with any available DM on the market (no matter the expense), or dream about Gerrard getting moved forward (and rediscovering his attacking virtues simply by change of position). And people even stopped asking "what does Allen actually do?".

I think we are all less susceptible to media hype now too; players are judged more on ability and stats and less on lazy stereotypes. We are also better at seeing through the agents' and owners' bullshit and posturing. At least I hope so.

It's been amusing listening to the Five Times podcast where earlier in the season St John et al were decrying Gerrard's position in the side, saying they wanted him further forward and he was wasted dropping deeper.

Then they all lauded the change to have him as the pivot.

If we get better full backs and a deeper strength in midfield depth, as well as a central defence that plays with intelligence and reads the game well, Gerrard will be strolling about controlling things for many a year.

 

[rurikbird]

You've said something similar in another thread, and it puzzles me since I usually agree with most of what you say. Most other top sides consider it important to have some steel in midfield protecting their back four, even though most of them are a fair bit more secure than we are at the back. We on the other hand don't have enough of that steel in midfield because our existing options just aren't adequate, and that at a time when our back four has ultimately not been good enough either. If not a DM - and there are none better than Mascherano - what *should* we do?

In short, improve the defense. It's not like our midfield has been overrun – during the winning run, when Henderson was playing in every game and Allen in most away games, we won the midfield battle every time. Lucas doesn't have enough speed to cover nearly as much ground as Hendo and it showed in Norwich and Palace games, when our midfield started returning to its unfortunate early-season pattern of defending deeply and reactively in the 2nd halves.

Some coaches set up teams with a clear separation between creative players and "workers" – Mourinho and Scolari are the two most prominent examples. Van Marwijk also used this system to take Holland to the World Cup final not long ago. Their front 6 would usually feature 2 "workers" and 4 "flair" players, who are only asked to perform the most basic defensive tasks. Sometimes one of the "workers" can be somewhat of a playmaker, but that's as far as these coaches go. These teams are effective, but they can also be boring and predictable. You tolerate them only for as long as the results are good.

Rodgers comes from the completely opposite strain of football thought, one exemplified by the likes of Van Gaal, Hiddink, Bielsa and Guardiola. In those systems there is barely any separation – attacking players are all expected to work hard and participate in the team press, nominally defensive players have to be creators first. These coaches usually favor 4-3-3 systems, which means one more midfielder and one less striker/AM. Because of this numerical advantage in midfield and also since the whole team including the forwards is working hard without the ball, you can get away with a lot less "steel" in midfield. In fact, to get the right balance you must have really strong creators in positions such as DM and CM, otherwise your team will struggle to turn its possession advantage into goals. You can't build a Barca with Obi Mikel and David Luiz (or Mascherano and Alex Song for that matter) in DM/CM, it has to be someone like Busquets and Xavi. That's why Javi Martinez is about to leave Bayern – Guardiola doesn't have a particular need for a player like him. Neither does Rodgers.

 

[Best Believe It]

In short, improve the defense. It's not like our midfield has been overrun – during the winning run, when Henderson was playing in every game and Allen in most away games, we won the midfield battle every time. Lucas doesn't have enough speed to cover nearly as much ground as Hendo and it showed in the Norwich and Palace game, when our midfield started returning to its early-season pattern of defending deeply and reactively in the 2nd halves.

Some coaches set up teams with a clear separation between creative players and "workers" – Mourinho and Scolari are the two most prominent examples. Van Marwijk also used this system to take Holland to the World Cup final not long ago. Their front 6 would usually feature 2 "workers" and 4 "flair" players, who are only asked to perform the most basic defensive tasks. Sometimes one of the "workers" can be somewhat of a playmaker, but that's as far as these coaches go. These teams are effective, but they can also be boring and predictable. You tolerate them only for as long as the results are good.

Rodgers comes from the completely opposite strain of football thought, one exemplified by the likes of Van Gaal, Hiddink, Bielsa and Guardiola. In those systems there is barely any separation – attacking players are all expected to work hard and participate in the team press, nominally defensive players have to be creators first. Since the whole team including the forwards is working hard without the ball, you can get away with a lot less "steel" in midfield. In fact, to get the right balance you must have really strong creators in positions such as DM and CM, otherwise your team will struggle to turn its possession advantage into goals. You can't build a Barca with Obi Mikel and David Luiz (or Mascherano and Alex Song for that matter) in DM/CM, it has to be someone like Busquets and Xavi. That's why Javi Martinez is about to leave Bayern – Guardiola doesn't have a particular need for a player like him. Neither does Rodgers.

As another example, look at the role Xabi plays for Real Madrid. The way that side is set up is explosive pace on the counter attack. That's why it's far more important to have someone who can pass in that pivot role rather than someone who can launch into tackles. It's much easier to release the ball quickly if you nick it through pressure rather than a steely bone-shattering sliding tackle.

 

[rurikbird]

Real now is kind of a hybrid of Mourinho and Ancelotti's AC Milan systems – the lightning-fast counter-attacking game was set up by the Portuguese, but now the Italian is trying to bring back some possession game and teach them to slow the game down. But still the counter-attack is their most effective weapon at the moment. It's fascinating to watch. Carlo is a very slow and deliberate builder and he always tries his best not to destroy what was built before him. I hope Perez gives him enough time to really put his own stamp on the team.

 

[Judge Jules]

JJ - it's not that our options aren't good enough - it's that our manager doesn't set the team up where more than one DM is used.

We don't play like chelsea with 2 DM's sitting in from of hand back four.

Mascherano ended up playing as a CB at Barca because they couldn't squeeze him in to their midfield.

He's not getting a start for us unless Gerrard's not playing.

There's no use pretending he'd slot in elsewhere, because Rosgers isn't going to slot him in elsewhere - well certainly not regularly.

A lot of good points in the various posts since I put mine up. I'll reply to them all via this one if I may.

I simply don't agree that "it's not that our options aren't good enough". Stevie G does a lot of great constructive work in his deeper role but there are real limitations to his defensive play, there are just as many to Lucas's (without the attacking compensations), and Allen - though he contributes defensively - isn't primarily a defensive player. I take rurikbird's point that the defence needs improving, but not his implication (and yours, I think, though correct me if I'm wrong) that this will be enough - IMO it won't, not with our midfield as it currently stands. Despite the way the discussion has gone, I'm not actually saying we have to get Mascherano specifically, but IMO we very definitely do have to stiffen the midfield as well as the defence against the times when we find ourselves on the back foot.

As for what Brendan will or won't do, IMO - and I say this as a big fan of what he's achieved - he needs to do more than he has this season to address these issues. I'm afraid I reckon he made clear errors in his approach to the Chelsea and Palace games, and I hope he learns from those. If he does, it may not be quite as easy to forecast some of his choices for next season as we might think.

 

[StevieM]

I think many of these guys think that our current personal is doing a terrific job in DM.

I remember how the team played when we had Mascher albeit under a different Manager, and if Lucas was doing his job properly I wouldn't have asked the question in the previous thread.

Yeah - it's not like our current personnel have got us to 2nd in the league or anything.

Lucas job is to slot in to Gerrard's position when Gerrard's not playing.

It's patently obvious he can't replace Henderson further forward - but neither could Mascherano.

When Lucas was required to fill the Gerrard role - there wasn't an issue - he can do it.

We have to address other areas before upgrading in areas we are reasonably well covered or that will have minimal overall impact.

 

[keniget]

I think that's a little harsh on Javi Martinez. Guardiola takes things to the extreme and I don't think Rodgers does / will do. Martinez could play a more balanced role.

 

[Judge Jules]

Yeah - it's not like our current personnel have got us to 2nd in the league or anything.

Lucas job is to slot in to Gerrard's position when Gerrard's not playing.

It's patently obvious he can't replace Henderson further forward - but neither could Mascherano.

When Lucas was required to fill the Gerrard role - there wasn't an issue - he can do it.

We have to address other areas before upgrading in areas we are reasonably well covered or that will have minimal overall impact.

Our "goals against" column says that's wrong. We've got as far as we have this season despite clear defensive deficiencies and we have to address all aspects of those if we want to win things consistently in the future.

 

[StevieM]

Our "goals against" column says that's wrong. We've got as far as we have this season despite clear defensive deficiencies and we have to address all aspects of those if we want to win things consistently in the future.

Then there are 3 options:

1. Change the style of play that got us to 2nd to a more pragmatic approach.
2. Drop Steven Gerrard.
3. Change our CB's.