Rodrygo Goes to Popworld

[KopRed]

The whole Diaz thing is personal with you, isn't it? Did he steal your girlfriend or something?

He's just not very good, imo of course. Decent on the 9, we could do better than him on the left. As proven when he lost his place to Gakpo last season. And everyone seemed to have forgotten his average seasons on the left under Klopp.

Maybe I had imagined that seeing how this place is unanimous in their support of him.

I mean, are people actually saying Diaz was our starting left wing last season and that Slot did not prefer Gakpo?

If so then I give up.

 

[Al_Gatto]

We're really talking about replacing the backup striker as much as the LW as Slot seems to prefer Gakpo at LW. Diaz did a job as striker but I think we could do better in a position where we are now very light (assuming Nunez can find his way to the airport).

But the real reason is cos Diaz won't keep his mouth shut and is 'determined to leave'. I worry that will disrupt the squad if he doesn't go. It's disappointing, especially when we're Champions and all the support he got during the kidnap nonsense.

Tbh the situation reminds me of Mane leaving cos he was apparently sick of playing second fiddle to Mo and not being paid as much.

 

[Squiggles]

Yep, no denying Diaz will be missed, especially that work-rate and tenacity he brings to every game. But he wants out, clearly has some gripe with the club, and whilst I don't think he would kick up a huge fuss or not perform on the pitch for us, I just don't see the point in keeping him if a sizable bid arrives. If he stays he's going to leave on a free for a mega contract to make up for his wages here. That means is a Diaz that wants out, worth £35M a season to us? For me, no. The level of upheaval does bother me but on balance I'd welcome the club proactively managing these things to avoid all the bullshit of VVD, Salah and Trent. I do accept there is a case of keeping him for 12 months with some form of gentleman's agreement and assessing options over that period, but letting it drift and doing nothing shouldn't be an option. All depends on replacement availability and what deals can be done.

 

[keniget]

He's just not very good, imo of course. Decent on the 9, we could do better than him on the left. As proven when he lost his place to Gakpo last season. And everyone seemed to have forgotten his average seasons on the left under Klopp.

Maybe I had imagined that seeing how this place is unanimous in their support of him.

I mean, are people actually saying Diaz was our starting left wing last season and that Slot did not prefer Gakpo?

If so then I give up.

When did he lose his place to Gakpo?

He seemed to start the season at LW. He seemed to play LW in key games (I checked both PSG and City games).

The fact that Slot rotated and utilized Diaz up front to compensate for the fact that we had no reliable strikers isn't some damning indictment.

Diaz is not world class and yeah, if you're comparing him to the likes of Salah and Mane, he's going to fall short, but saying he's "not very good" is just objectively false.

He's more a traditional winger than a wide forward. He can be inconsistent and doesn't score as much as perhaps we'd like him to but he always works hard, never lets his head drop and has delivered in key moments for us.

Think back to the conveyor belt of shit wide players Rafa, for example, gave us and then re-examine what "not very good" means.

 

[KopRed]

When did he lose his place to Gakpo?

He seemed to start the season at LW. He seemed to play LW in key games (I checked both PSG and City games).

The fact that Slot rotated and utilized Diaz up front to compensate for the fact that we had no reliable strikers isn't some damning indictment.

Diaz is not world class and yeah, if you're comparing him to the likes of Salah and Mane, he's going to fall short, but saying he's "not very good" is just objectively false.

He's more a traditional winger than a wide forward. He can be inconsistent and doesn't score as much as perhaps we'd like him to but he always works hard, never lets his head drop and has delivered in key moments for us.

Think back to the conveyor belt of shit wide players Rafa, for example, gave us and then re-examine what "not very good" means.

There you go. Diaz didn't lose his place, he was needed elsewhere. He started against PSG on the left even when we had only 2 shots on goal the entire night but it's no fault of his. He started on the left in Anfield and we were duly knocked out, scoring zero goals, must be Salah's fault. He started against Plymouth but Chiesa and Elliot were shit that's why we got knocked out.

I haven't seen a senior player get so much goodwill when Nunez is just kicked around like a bad joke.

 

[StevieM]

There you go. Diaz didn't lose his place, he was needed elsewhere. He started against PSG on the left even when we had only 2 shots on goal the entire night but it's no fault of his. He started on the left in Anfield and we were duly knocked out, scoring zero goals, must be Salah's fault. He started against Plymouth but Chiesa and Elliot were shit so were got knocked out.

I haven't seen a senior player get so much goodwill when Nunez is just kicked around like a bad joke.

That’s because Nunez is shite and Diaz isn’t.

 

[keniget]

There you go. Diaz didn't lose his place, he was needed elsewhere. He started against PSG on the left even when we had only 2 shots on goal the entire night but it's no fault of his. He started on the left in Anfield and we were duly knocked out, scoring zero goals, must be Salah's fault. He started against Plymouth but Chiesa and Elliot were shit so were got knocked out.

I haven't seen a senior player get so much goodwill when Nunez is just kicked around like a bad joke.

Hang on, what's your argument?

That Diaz "lost his place" or that he actually didn't and is the primary factor that we failed to score in the key matches that Slot started him in?

Which is it? I'm lost now.

 

[peterhague]

There you go. Diaz didn't lose his place, he was needed elsewhere. He started against PSG on the left even when we had only 2 shots on goal the entire night but it's no fault of his. He started on the left in Anfield and we were duly knocked out, scoring zero goals, must be Salah's fault. He started against Plymouth but Chiesa and Elliot were shit that's why we got knocked out.

I haven't seen a senior player get so much goodwill when Nunez is just kicked around like a bad joke.

You're an idiot.

 

[KopRed]

Hang on, what's your argument?

That Diaz "lost his place" or that he actually didn't and is the primary factor that we failed to score in the key matches that Slot started him in?

Which is it? I'm lost now.

Both can be true? Gakpo was injured alot in the 2nd half of the season. Or maybe you are just pretending to miss the point?

 

[KopRed]

You're an idiot.

Oh before I forgot, Diaz started in the league cup finals as well. Maybe it's all just a big coincidence.

 

[peterhague]

Oh before I forgot, Diaz started in the league cup finals as well. Maybe it's all just a big coincidence.

He started virtually all our league games in a season we won the league for only the second time in 35 years.

Therefore it must be the case that he's better than Gerrard who never won us the league although he did win us the CL which Diaz never did the big useless twat. Conclusion: Diaz is both miles better and miles worse than Gerrard.

 

[peekay]

When did he lose his place to Gakpo?

He seemed to start the season at LW. He seemed to play LW in key games (I checked both PSG and City games).

The fact that Slot rotated and utilized Diaz up front to compensate for the fact that we had no reliable strikers isn't some damning indictment.

Diaz is not world class and yeah, if you're comparing him to the likes of Salah and Mane, he's going to fall short, but saying he's "not very good" is just objectively false.

He's more a traditional winger than a wide forward. He can be inconsistent and doesn't score as much as perhaps we'd like him to but he always works hard, never lets his head drop and has delivered in key moments for us.

Think back to the conveyor belt of shit wide players Rafa, for example, gave us and then re-examine what "not very good" means.

It has been ages since we had a discussion on the definition of world class.

Ronaldo, Salah, and Mane rewrote the script on the productivity of wide players. I believe Diaz's last season compares very favorably to the productivity of next tier of premier league wide attackers who are still considered greats - Robben, Giggs, Ljunberg, Duff, and Pires.

 

[rubans]

It has been ages since we had a discussion on the definition of world class.

Ronaldo, Salah, and Mane rewrote the script on the productivity of wide players. I believe Diaz's last season compares very favorably to the productivity of next tier of premier league wide attackers who are still considered greats - Robben, Giggs, Ljunberg, Duff, and Pires.

Can't argue with that. He is definitely next tier but wouldn't compare him to the greats you mentioned on their respective best seasons in that position. Maybe stastically it may say other wise but most of those players won POY awards at various times from what I remember if not all. Their finishing on big games when it mattered was another level to Diaz, would Giggs or Pires have scored with the chances against City in 2024? I would have banked on but Diaz didn't...
He clearly wants to leave and feels like he has wanted to leave for a while, to me he is no different to Trent in that respect so why it's obvious why some may not really appreciate Diaz.

 

[Whaddapie]

There you go. Diaz didn't lose his place, he was needed elsewhere. He started against PSG on the left even when we had only 2 shots on goal the entire night but it's no fault of his. He started on the left in Anfield and we were duly knocked out, scoring zero goals, must be Salah's fault. He started against Plymouth but Chiesa and Elliot were shit that's why we got knocked out.

I haven't seen a senior player get so much goodwill when Nunez is just kicked around like a bad joke.

This is all very silly, mate... Only one forward missed a sitter that night, and it wasn't Diaz. Is Mo rubbish now, too? And Ali let the goals in - Is he not really the best keeper in the world? What about Virgil, who was skipper for all these matches..?

 

[peekay]

Can't argue with that. He is definitely next tier but wouldn't compare him to the greats you mentioned on their respective best seasons in that position. Maybe stastically it may say other wise but most of those players won POY awards at various times from what I remember if not all. Their finishing on big games when it mattered was another level to Diaz, would Giggs or Pires have scored with the chances against City in 2024? I would have banked on but Diaz didn't...
He clearly wants to leave and feels like he has wanted to leave for a while, to me he is no different to Trent in that respect so why it's obvious why some may not really appreciate Diaz.

Outside of that FA cup goal, did Giggs score any other important goal. The last time Giggs scored more than 10 goals in the premier league was in 1995-1996 season. I feel he has been living of that FA cup goal for ages. And he won the POTY because when he was in his late 30 only because of Ferguson’s campaign to get him one. The Mancs make it out like he was some kind of Steven Gerrard influential in scoring important goals, he was not.

Pires, I agree, scored some more influential goals. But in terms of overall effectiveness, Diaz is not far off from them.

Another great wide attacking player was Steven Gerrard in 2005-2006. Played on the right wing and scored more than 20 goals in all competitions on that season.

 

[refugee]

Another great wide attacking player was Steven Gerrard in 2005-2006. Played on the right wing and scored more than 20 goals in all competitions on that season.

Never heard of him

 

[bazazaba]

As much as I agree that by the eyeball test, Robben, Pires and Giggs are players a class above Diaz, when it comes to the hard data on league goals scored, Diaz actually compares well to the lot except Pires. By the eyeball test, I would put Diaz around Duff's level.

Lucho arrived in the January transfer window and scored 4 goals in 13 league games. Then another 4 in 17 league games in his second season, a season where he lost 4 months to a knee injury. Post-injury, he scored 8 in 37, then 13 in 36 league games the last 2 seasons.

Giggs averaged around 6 to 8 league goals in his peak seasons, with highs of 11 and 13, and lows of 1 and 3.
Robben? 7, 6, and 2 goals in 3 seasons, 2 of which were injury-blighted.
Duff ... averaged 6 to 7 goals at Blackburn, with a couple of 1-goal seasons. Then 5, 6 and 3 at Chelsea.
Pires was a different class now. 14 goals a season consistently for 3 seasons in a row, bookended by seasons with 9 and 7.

But again, I agree that by the eyeball, I'd pick Giggs, Robben and Pires over Diaz. Then I look at the data, and I think, maybe Diaz wasn't that far off from them. We might have negative biases when we watch our own guys because we see and feel the flaws often and closer, whereas with the others, we catch highlights, or some of their full games, and we think they poop gold.

 

[Al_Gatto]

I'd be interested to see how Lucho's assists compare as he seems a bit short in quality linking up sometimes and assisting is arguably a wider forwards main function.

But I'd take his physicality and workrate over any of those historic comparisons. Don't think Pires or Robben ever put in a tackle, though it was a different era.

How does he stack up against Shaggy, who was probably our best wideman?

 

[rubans]

Pires, I agree, scored some more influential goals. But in terms of overall effectiveness, Diaz is not far off from them.

Another great wide attacking player was Steven Gerrard in 2005-2006. Played on the right wing and scored more than 20 goals in all competitions on that season.

Come on, maybe Giggs is dodgy shagger but in his 20yrs or so, he scored a lot of important goals apart from that one goal. Also, important distinction is he played primarily hald of those games in LM and not more advances LW as per Diaz.

 

[bluebell]

View: https://x.com/DaveOCKOP/status/1947682484461941240

 

[bazazaba]

I'd be interested to see how Lucho's assists compare as he seems a bit short in quality linking up sometimes and assisting is arguably a wider forwards main function.

But I'd take his physicality and workrate over any of those historic comparisons. Don't think Pires or Robben ever put in a tackle, though it was a different era.

How does he stack up against Shaggy, who was probably our best wideman?

McManaman? I agree that aesthetically, McManaman was more pleasing to the eye to watch. Goals-wise though, somewhat comparable production although over more seasons (averaged around 7; high of 11, low of 2 in the league, mostly scoring in the 5 to 7 range). I have a vague recollection that one criticism of McManaman at that time was that he didn't score enough for all his flair.

 

[Woland]

View: https://x.com/lfcsavvy/status/1947674916599247239?t=F728eaXhzIJMa4Y90zkPTw&s=19

 

[Frogfish]

McManaman? I agree that aesthetically, McManaman was more pleasing to the eye to watch. Goals-wise though, somewhat comparable production although over more seasons (averaged around 7; high of 11, low of 2 in the league, mostly scoring in the 5 to 7 range). I have a vague recollection that one criticism of McManaman at that time was that he didn't score enough for all his flair.

More pleasing on the eye ?! I always thought he looked like he was falling over his own feet or stumbling through people. I greatly under-estimated the effect that had on the opposition though - a bit like the Drunken style (zui quan) in Kung Fu.

 

[peekay]

As much as I agree that by the eyeball test, Robben, Pires and Giggs are players a class above Diaz, when it comes to the hard data on league goals scored, Diaz actually compares well to the lot except Pires. By the eyeball test, I would put Diaz around Duff's level.

Lucho arrived in the January transfer window and scored 4 goals in 13 league games. Then another 4 in 17 league games in his second season, a season where he lost 4 months to a knee injury. Post-injury, he scored 8 in 37, then 13 in 36 league games the last 2 seasons.

Giggs averaged around 6 to 8 league goals in his peak seasons, with highs of 11 and 13, and lows of 1 and 3.
Robben? 7, 6, and 2 goals in 3 seasons, 2 of which were injury-blighted.
Duff ... averaged 6 to 7 goals at Blackburn, with a couple of 1-goal seasons. Then 5, 6 and 3 at Chelsea.
Pires was a different class now. 14 goals a season consistently for 3 seasons in a row, bookended by seasons with 9 and 7.

But again, I agree that by the eyeball, I'd pick Giggs, Robben and Pires over Diaz. Then I look at the data, and I think, maybe Diaz wasn't that far off from them. We might have negative biases when we watch our own guys because we see and feel the flaws often and closer, whereas with the others, we catch highlights, or some of their full games, and we think they poop gold.

Diaz is a late bloomer. He attended trials for a professional club in Colombia when he was 17 and was found to be underweight. You can’t compare him to other players based on age. He might be 28 or 29 but he is still learning and putting together his game. Not the finished article yet. And even in that timeframe his progress was disrupted by injury and the kidnapping. I believe if he stays with us for 4 more years, he will be close to Robert Pires level.

 

[KopRed]

Are we really comparing Diaz to Robben, Giggs and Pires now... even if we forget stats, just on eyeball tests, it's getting silly.

Giggs, best of the lot during United's prime years. Robben is world class. Pires was one of their best players during the invincibles years.

Diaz, not even close...

 

[peekay]

Come on, maybe Giggs is dodgy shagger but in his 20yrs or so, he scored a lot of important goals apart from that one goal. Also, important distinction is he played primarily hald of those games in LM and not more advances LW as per Diaz.

Not being argumentative but which are those. My counterpoint is that if he had scored important goals, Manc loving media and their fans would be screaming about it from the rooftops. Everytime I ask this question to United supporter friends, they only point to the FA cup goal.

 

[Markeh]

i find comparisons across eras really difficult, can you honestly say dropping diaz into the peak fergie team wouldn’t have produced similar results? do the arsenal invincibles stand up today? would pele be ass today?

 

[tombrown]

i find comparisons across eras really difficult, can you honestly say dropping diaz into the peak fergie team wouldn’t have produced similar results? do the arsenal invincibles stand up today? would pele be ass today?

He certainly wouldn't be cock, anyway

 

[FreshRed]

Diaz has underperformed every season except the last, but even then, I think we can do much better. Not sure Rodrygo is the answer.

While his effort is unquestionable, his decision making is often really poor and his number of assists are just not really acceptable for winger in a top team.

He did score some crucial goals last season and he was a key member of a championship team, but it is very possible that last year was his peak and he will revert to prior output going forward.

I am fine if he goes, if we get a good price.

 

[darkstarexodus]

i find comparisons across eras really difficult, can you honestly say dropping diaz into the peak fergie team wouldn’t have produced similar results? do the arsenal invincibles stand up today? would pele be ass today?

100% this. Tactics, fitness, recovery -- all very different.

I can say with all seriousness that 2025 Diaz absolutely would rinse "Peak" Giggs, Pires, Robben, et al if we put them all on a pitch today. But that wouldn't be a fair comparison for the reasons above.

Based on comparison to his contemporaries, Diaz is probably one of the top 20 or so wingers/wide attackers in the world.

My biggest concern with him is that he's largely a solo show and doesn't seem to integrate with the players around him as well as I'd like. This means that if an opportunity to upgrade him (not that there are many who are better) arose, we should absolutely do so.

Whether Rodrygo, for all his talent, is the right player -- or the right price -- is the question to me.

We don't need to sell Diaz and unless a big offer comes in, I have no problem keeping him for this season even if it means he eventually leaves on a free or for a reduced price next summer.