Florian and the (Slot) Machine

[Frogfish]

Look at how Szoboszlai plays for us. He’s box to box. Mac Allister is box to box lite. Wirtz would be replacing either of those. He’s not box to box and leaves us weaker there in both defensive and somewhat physical shape. To me, that means we may switch to a 4-4-1-1 with him being a more orthodox 10 behind Isak or Ekitike.

Wirtz consistently has one of the highest kms run per match, even challenging Szobo, so if he is not box to box then that is a tactical distinction implemented by Slot, which makes sense when you are employing a double pivot (or very close to it) which seems to the case now.

 

[Frogfish]

yeah, of course, but the trade off is greater attacking skill for less physical presence.

For me that makes sense if we’re playing low block teams.

I agree,” there is some work to do in terms of shape, but I’m not convinced that’s all to do with him as he’s not the only one that seems to gravitate to the inside left channel.

I mean 4-4-1-1 is basically 4-2-3-1 isn’t it, and even that is easily moveable to 4-3-3 depending on what you want in or out of possession.

As Slot himself has said : we play 3-4 different formations during a. match depending on whether we are in/out of possession or winning/losing/drawing.

 

[Dreambeliever]

In that case… can Dreamie please shut the fuck up for the next decade until we gather the info required to prove or disprove his theory. 😉

It reinforces my point - Dreamies starting point before a ball was kicked was that he was a failure and then deployed some sort of “mott and bailey fallacy” type argumentative style to defend that position.

I’m glad I’m not the only one seeing this.

I never once said he was a failure before he kicked a ball and in fact he looks superb in first 25 mins against Palace. I merely stated the risk was massive that he could fail for a lot of the reasons that are playing out so far. I’m hopeful he can adapt and it’s way too early do label him a failure now never mind before he kicked a ball so stop talking shit. He’s been rubbish so far, it doesn’t mean he can’t or won’t improve.

 

[KopRed]

Are people unhappy we have spent big or that we have spent big on Wirtz?

Some have quoted Ali and Virgil as successful big spends, but nobody can predict how they will turn out AT THAT POINT. You either do it or you don't. Every purchase is made with good intentions, same for Wirtz.

All other observations, eg we should have done this or done that when something turns south are all based on hindsight.

If Wirtz does indeed flop, we will just have to try again. Or are people actually suggesting we go back to scrapping for vastly unproven players like Liam Delap around the 30-50m range?

 

[StevieM]

I never once said he was a failure before he kicked a ball and in fact he looks superb in first 25 mins against Palace. I merely stated the risk was massive that he could fail for a lot of the reasons that are playing out so far. I’m hopeful he can adapt and it’s way too early do label him a failure now never mind before he kicked a ball so stop talking shit. He’s been rubbish so far, it doesn’t mean he can’t or won’t improve.

Well then, we’re all agreed.

It’s salary too early to be calling Wirtz a success or failure tell whether his transfer fee was worth it, but we’re all in agreement that we would like to see better performances from the player.

When we have established you’ll be able to say you absolutely hoped he’d be a success and you never ever “called it” that he would be a failure - but did think it was a risk.

That’s fair, nothing wrong with that position.

For reference, in case you don’t know, the “motte and bailey fallacy” is where someone says something deliberately controversial and when challenged, retreats to something more easy to defend so they can conflate the two and validate their original position.

So, obviously you won’t be saying you were right all along that you called him a failure early on because you didn’t do that.

I think it’s fair, if he doesn’t work out - and I think we’ve established roughly what working out looks like (somewhere around the 20 goals & assists per season), that you get to say you were right to be worried over the risk associated with this transfer - although as you rightly stated it’s way too early to really know.

Now we can all relax and enjoy the season.

 

[jexykrodic]

Now we can all relax and enjoy the season.

Too early to say.

Nothing wrong with that position but it's a risk.

 

[StevieM]

Too early to say.

Nothing wrong with that position but it's a risk.

True - too many late winners to be able to relax.

 

[MomoWASright]

Are people unhappy we have spent big or that we have spent big on Wirtz?

Some have quoted Ali and Virgil as successful big spends, but nobody can predict how they will turn out AT THAT POINT. You either do it or you don't. Every purchase is made with good intentions, same for Wirtz.

All other observations, eg we should have done this or done that when something turns south are all based on hindsight.

If Wirtz does indeed flop, we will just have to try again. Or are people actually suggesting we go back to scrapping for vastly unproven players like Liam Delap around the 30-50m range?

I’m unhappy we spent that much on a player and then scrimped over a few million for a defender and now we are praying we can get through the next 3 months with Konate and Gomez. We spent that much on a player who hasn’t shown anything (so far) to warrant such a fee in a Liverpool shirt. We spent that much on a player who doesn’t really fit our system. We spent that much on a player who may never have the physicality (a massive criticism by many on here made of Elliott) to make it in this league. We spent that much on a player and still have no alternative to Salah on the right. We spent that much and don’t have back up to Gravenberch.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but if we were to go back 3 months and go we have signed Frimpong, Kerkez, Isak and Ekitike, where do we need to strengthen? I wouldn’t have picked a number 10. If we really wanted to have a 10, then £116 million seems steep when we have bigger issues within the squad.

 

[MomoWASright]

Wirtz consistently has one of the highest kms run per match, even challenging Szobo, so if he is not box to box then that is a tactical distinction implemented by Slot, which makes sense when you are employing a double pivot (or very close to it) which seems to the case now.

Which is one of my main points, we are changing our tactical approach and it’s a massive gamble with that outlay.

 

[Mamma Mia]

If only we spent the 100m on Caceido we could have avoided this Wirtz disaster

 

[Frogfish]

Which is one of my main points, we are changing our tactical approach and it’s a massive gamble with that outlay.

Hang on, end of last season everyone some posters were saying "we've been worked out". Now when Slot does something to address that, and LFC sign what is likely to be the best possible player for Slot's vision, people are doubting not just Slot but Wirtz, Isak, Frimpong and Kerkez from what I've seen in recent posts. Already?! After just 5-6 games ?!

Personally I've got a lot more belief in Slot, the coaching team and players, they've earned it. It might take a little while, tweaking & coaching here and there, to get it to gel but I've every faith in them.

For me I can only see it getting better, we've been winning due to the quality of the players we've got and their moments of individual brilliance, which goes to prove the point once they know each other's games better they are likely to dominate matches far more than they are doing now and so the wins should come easier.

 

[MomoWASright]

Hang on, end of last season everyone was saying "we've been worked out". Now when Slot does something to address that, and LFC sign what is likely to be the best possible player for Slot's vision, people are doubting not just Slot but Wirtz, Isak, Frimpong and Kerkez from what I've seen in recent posts. Already?! After just 5-6 games ?!

Personally I've got a lot more belief in Slot, the coaching team and players, they've earned it. It might take a little while, tweaking & coaching here and there, to get it to gel but I've every faith in them.

For me I can only see it getting better, we've been winning due to the quality of the players we've got and their moments of individual brilliance, which goes to prove the point once they know each other's games better they are likely to dominate matches far more than they are doing now and so the wins should come easier.

Who worked us out? We won the league at a canter and went into party mode for the last half dozen games.

 

[Frogfish]

Who worked us out? We won the league at a canter and went into party mode for the last half dozen games.

According to some on here (I've edited the above - it wasn't 'everyone', no idea why I wrote that)! Every time we lose/draw some say that.

 

[tomasjj]

Which is one of my main points, we are changing our tactical approach and it’s a massive gamble with that outlay.

We might have to, post salah yanno?

 

[tomasjj]

I’m unhappy we spent that much on a player and then scrimped over a few million for a defender and now we are praying we can get through the next 3 months with Konate and Gomez. We spent that much on a player who hasn’t shown anything (so far) to warrant such a fee in a Liverpool shirt. We spent that much on a player who doesn’t really fit our system. We spent that much on a player who may never have the physicality (a massive criticism by many on here made of Elliott) to make it in this league. We spent that much on a player and still have no alternative to Salah on the right. We spent that much and don’t have back up to Gravenberch.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but if we were to go back 3 months and go we have signed Frimpong, Kerkez, Isak and Ekitike, where do we need to strengthen? I wouldn’t have picked a number 10. If we really wanted to have a 10, then £116 million seems steep when we have bigger issues within the squad.

We usually agree on most things.
Here you are just digging yourself deeper down a hole

 

[StevieM]

I’m unhappy we spent that much on a player and then scrimped over a few million for a defender and now we are praying we can get through the next 3 months with Konate and Gomez. We spent that much on a player who hasn’t shown anything (so far) to warrant such a fee in a Liverpool shirt. We spent that much on a player who doesn’t really fit our system. We spent that much on a player who may never have the physicality (a massive criticism by many on here made of Elliott) to make it in this league. We spent that much on a player and still have no alternative to Salah on the right. We spent that much and don’t have back up to Gravenberch.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but if we were to go back 3 months and go we have signed Frimpong, Kerkez, Isak and Ekitike, where do we need to strengthen? I wouldn’t have picked a number 10. If we really wanted to have a 10, then £116 million seems steep when we have bigger issues within the squad.

To be fair though, the “scrimping” sort of worked over Guehi and if you believe the stories, it was a few million Palace were wanting, it was more like £20m more and over the £50m mark - which would have been crazy and led to other meltdowns on here.

The deal was all agreed for a cracking fee - and if it weren’t for Palace fucking around, the lad was ours.

We even signed another young CB for added cover - and it’s a unfortunate unpredictable accident that’s robbed us of his services on his debut.

I remember you, like me, having every confidence that Harvey “the boy” would be a success even though his physicality was an issue and I don’t recall you writing him off after 5 games.

I also disagree - the number 10 position and Dom absolutely were one of the key positions that people argued needed to be improved on last season - there’s been plenty of negativity about Dom since he signed despite his good qualities.

Maybe Wirtz should be given a run on the left, Gakkers is hardly firing at the minute, give him time to find is feet in a more familiar position and we take Dom being on fire in the centre until we’re ready to tweak it again.

 

[King Binny]

Wirtz über Ablösesumme, Eingewöhnung, Spielweise & Kader-Qualität in Liverpool

Der Star-Neuzugang des FC Liverpool spricht über seine hohe Ablösesumme, die Unterschiede zu seiner Spielweise in der Bundesliga und die Qualität im Reds-Kader.

sport.sky.de

View: https://x.com/FlorianFocus/status/1971288795673919585

View: https://x.com/FlorianFocus/status/1971289573712961557

View: https://x.com/FlorianFocus/status/1971291225002213828

View: https://x.com/FlorianFocus/status/1971293109611876713

 

[Dreambeliever]

Are people unhappy we have spent big or that we have spent big on Wirtz?

Some have quoted Ali and Virgil as successful big spends, but nobody can predict how they will turn out AT THAT POINT. You either do it or you don't. Every purchase is made with good intentions, same for Wirtz.

All other observations, eg we should have done this or done that when something turns south are all based on hindsight.

If Wirtz does indeed flop, we will just have to try again. Or are people actually suggesting we go back to scrapping for vastly unproven players like Liam Delap around the 30-50m range?

I wasn’t happy. I thought the risk was too high but will absolutely love it I'm wrong as we’ll have ha another sustained period of success.

I’d say Wirtz is easily the most expensive ‘unproven’ top player we’ve bought.

 

[localny]

I wasn’t happy. I thought the risk was too high but will absolutely love it I'm wrong as we’ll have ha another sustained period of success.

I’d say Wirtz is easily the most expensive proven top player we’ve bought.

Fair play man for keeping an open mind. He really did prove himself in the Bundesliga, last year indeed.

 

[darkstarexodus]

Wirtz über Ablösesumme, Eingewöhnung, Spielweise & Kader-Qualität in Liverpool

Der Star-Neuzugang des FC Liverpool spricht über seine hohe Ablösesumme, die Unterschiede zu seiner Spielweise in der Bundesliga und die Qualität im Reds-Kader.

sport.sky.de

View: https://x.com/FlorianFocus/status/1971288795673919585

View: https://x.com/FlorianFocus/status/1971289573712961557

View: https://x.com/FlorianFocus/status/1971291225002213828

View: https://x.com/FlorianFocus/status/1971293109611876713

I think that's a pretty fair and open interview. Appreciate his honestly in recognizing he's not where he wants to be but that it will take time.

We all want him to be a star for us and we all know he's not there yet. He can have a bit of time so long as we keep racking up the points.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Well then, we’re all agreed.

It’s salary too early to be calling Wirtz a success or failure tell whether his transfer fee was worth it, but we’re all in agreement that we would like to see better performances from the player.

When we have established you’ll be able to say you absolutely hoped he’d be a success and you never ever “called it” that he would be a failure - but did think it was a risk.

That’s fair, nothing wrong with that position.

For reference, in case you don’t know, the “motte and bailey fallacy” is where someone says something deliberately controversial and when challenged, retreats to something more easy to defend so they can conflate the two and validate their original position.

So, obviously you won’t be saying you were right all along that you called him a failure early on because you didn’t do that.

I think it’s fair, if he doesn’t work out - and I think we’ve established roughly what working out looks like (somewhere around the 20 goals & assists per season), that you get to say you were right to be worried over the risk associated with this transfer - although as you rightly stated it’s way too early to really know.

Now we can all relax and enjoy the season.

I’m very aware what it is and if he turns out a failure I can absolutely say the risk was too great and that it wasn’t a good business decision. My risk tolerance at the time of purchase was clearly a lot lower than most fans which is fine. The funny thing is which you seem to fail to grasp in this case is my objections were based on what our risk tolerance should be for such a signing, not just the player himself, so if he does end up not succeeding here, instead of saying I called him a failure earliest, I’ll merely say the risk was too great in the first place for the price. That’s not his fault by the way and I really love his attitude and application so far. I hope every single player is a raging success once they are signed and to suggest otherwise is just plain wrong.
Well except Diouf, he can get fucked!

I am loving this season so far and always thought we’d struggle to retain the title so so far I’m in dream land. Long may it continue.

 

[StevieM]

I’m very aware what it is and if he turns out a failure I can absolutely say the risk was too great and that it wasn’t a good business decision. My risk tolerance at the time of purchase was clearly a lot lower than most fans which is fine. The funny thing is which you seem to fail to grasp in this case is my objections were based on what our risk tolerance should be for such a signing, not just the player himself, so if he does end up not succeeding here, instead of saying I called him a failure earliest, I’ll merely say the risk was too great in the first place for the price. That’s not his fault by the way and I really love his attitude and application so far. I hope every single player is a raging success once they are signed and to suggest otherwise is just plain wrong.
Well except Diouf, he can get fucked!

I am loving this season so far and always thought we’d struggle to retain the title so so far I’m in dream land. Long may it continue.

That’s all fine Dreamie - and I have no issue at all with you saying you think that the “risk tolerance” is too great.

I have an issue with anyone saying that any sort of substantive position on his success or failure can be established so soon.

We can debate what drives your “risk tolerance” determination if you want, what the alternatives were and as with everything risk is balanced by reward, of which I’d argue Wirtz offers massive opportunity - but that can’t be proven with success as purely speculative as failure.

He’s been underwhelming so far - but so have half the team and it hasn’t cost us anything which is great.

I agree his attitude has been great - which always feels like it improves the chance of success - I do believe that players of his type, who don’t rely on physically as much as other players can take a little longer to acclimatise.

 

[Frogfish]

Wirtz on the differences in playing in the Premier League:"I recently talked to the coach about it, and he suggested why I might not be able to get into the situations I normally get into. That is, that I'm making the game fast with a dribble or a pass. He said it could be because we press a lot and I run a lot.

For example, the running stats: I'm always at the top there because I try to push hard and do what the coach asks. I need a lot of strength and energy for that. When I have the ball, I might be lacking a little bit. That it will simply come step by step, as I play more games, get fitter, be able to do things more easily, and then, when I have the ball, be fit enough and recovered enough to push hard."

------

Wirtz about what Slot told him:"After the Champions League game, he told me I wouldn't start in the league because he wanted to control the load a bit and see which game I could play better in. He decided on the Champions League game, that I would start there and then sit on the bench in the league. I fully understood that. I was able to recover a bit and didn't have to exert myself as much."

-------

Wirtz about the point in time we'll see his 100 percent:"That's difficult to say. I'd like to know, too, but it can take some time until you really arrive somewhere and settle in and are familiar with everything, and I'll allow myself that. I just hope that at some point the time will come when I feel truly comfortable, at home, and ready."

 

[KopRed]

He's saying all the right things with the self reflection etc but I thought he was really poor when he came on against Everton. More so than usual, almost sulking even. If he was as what he said himself, too much energy was expended running around then the 30 mins he played was bad even when fresh.

IMO, the team just hadn't adapted to the way he wants to play or pass the ball yet and it should get better gradually. He seemed pretty much on the same wavelength as Isak in their short cameo together.

 

[BishBashBosh]

Pressure is going to increase if he continues not to influence games.

 

[binomial]

Pressure is going to increase if he continues not to influence games.

He's being failed by the manager. Played as a false 9 in pre-season because we didn't have a striker at the time, then he starting playing as the 10 and now he's being shunted out wide all in the space of 3 months - how the fuck are you supposed to build up any sort of understanding if you're just randomly throwing players around when it suits, it's fucking embarrassing tbh. Rookie coaching.

We don't have a functional system in which he can operate at his optimum - football isn't tennis, it's a fucking a team sport, he's new to the league and still young.......yet because of his price tag he's the one we have to look as the leading figure to drag us out the dirt when everything around him is absolutely fucking shite? It doesn't work like that.

 

[Farkmaster]

He's being failed by the manager. Played as a false 9 in pre-season because we didn't have a striker at the time, then he starting playing as the 10 and now he's being shunted out wide all in the space of 3 months - how the fuck are you supposed to build up any sort of understanding if you're just randomly throwing players around, it's fucking embarrassing tbh. Rookie coaching.

We don't have a functional system in which he can operate at his optimum, he's new to the league and still young.......yet because of his price tag he's the one we have to look as the leading figure when everything around him is absolutely fucking shite? It doesn't work like that.

He's been given exactly what he wants. I wouldnt expect it all to click, but I'd expect signs that it might. He's not really even offering those with any frequency.

Id say he'd probably be better with isak in front of him than etikite since they occupy similar spaces but so fucking what. The guy he displaced, who has actually contributed, has been at right back.

Ive got no sympathy, he's got time on his side, but we don't for this season. Thus far he's a massive disappointment and I don't really see any reason to attribute it to anyone else.

 

[MomoWASright]

How many appearances does he need for me to get away with calling him fucking shit and probably our Wirtz ever deal? After Diouf of course.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Came here to say exactly this^.
I'm calling it - I dont need to see more, or to give him more time. He's fucking shite.

 

[peekay]

The only reason he continuously gets to start is his price tag. Klopp had a way of acclimatizing players to his tactics and the PL without starting them every game. Hope Slot learns that formula.