Our attack

[peekay]

Is it just me that remains a bit unconvinced by our attack against well organized defenses.

• Nunez - not quite sure how he fits. We are hoping that he has a second season renaissance like he had at Benfica. But Klopp's comments and him not learning the language dampens the enthusiasm a bit.
• Jota - excellent player when fit. Not sure if he will remain fit throughout a season.
• Diaz - fitness is a concern. He has shown a lot of promise and an excellent footballer but there are doubts about whether he will be as "productive" as Mane. He is definitely not an "in your face" warrior that Mane was.
• Gakpo - a more functional Firmino. He might grow to be statistically better than Firmino but not sure if he can dance like Bobby against packed defenses.
• Salah - Delivering on goals and assists front spectacularly but we can all agree that he is not the peak Salah who frightens defenders.
• Carvalho, Elliot - shrugs. Lacks pace to play in our attack.

@StevieM has made several long posts on the lack of pressing from upfront. With Mane, Salah, Firmino trio it was pretty much obvious by the fifth game how they fit with each other. Also with Mane and Salah they were worth significantly more than what we paid for them by the end of the first season. Such was their instant impact. We cannot quite say the same for our recent purchases - Nunez, Diaz, Gakpo.

I am fairly confident our midfield and defense will be addressed over the summer. But I am not sure if our attack can keep us toe to toe with City or the later stages of the CL. Maybe it is my lack of insight but we seem to be missing a bit of gold dust. There are good attributes but distributed over multiple players and I am unable to see how the pieces fit. If no one leaves over the summer and everyone is fit then I assume Diaz, Gakpo, Salah is our starting three. Maybe we are entering a new phase of Klopp where Salah is constant and the other two are rotated until someone claims those positions. But that does not seem to be the way Klopp operate who is a bit rotation resistant.

I am not complaining in this post. I guess I am a bit confused and if anyone can share more insight, would be happy to read.

 

[KopRed]

Diaz, flashes of brilliance but he is no Suarez. I don't think he's even going to be as good for us as Mane. Looked really light weight yesterday, hopefully he's just unfit.

 

[ibromurph]

Bobby, Mane and Salah used to have a wonderful combination of blistering pace, intelligence, skill/technique and finishing.

All 3 were world class for a period of time.

Mane - Pace, Skill, Intelligence, Finishing. In that order.
Salah - Pace, Finishing, Intelligence, Skill.
Bobby - Skill, Intelligence.

Right now we have limited forward players. Only Salah is potentially still world class (but he's lost his pace):

Salah - Finishing, Intelligence, Skill. In that order.
Diaz - Skill.
Nunez - Pace.
Gakpo - Skill, Intelligence.
Jota - Finishing, Intelligence.

Gakpo won't develop pace, but could improve his finishing and intelligence.
Nunez looks a lost cause, but could improve his finishing and intelligence. Unlikely his skill/technique will get much better.
Diaz really needs to improve his finishing and intelligence. He's like a Mane-lite right now. Just worse in every area.
Salah is on the decline but still class.
Jota won't get much better. Can't really see him being more than a rotation player to be honest.

 

[RedStar]

I think the biggest issue we had this season was not knowing our best team in both midfield and attack. Salah/Mané/Firmino knew each others play inside out, it becomes second nature and at their peak they seemed to read each other telepathically. Klopp likes consistency, his changes come more from necessity than rotation.

We don't have that now and it's been obvious this season. As to what our starting 3 is next season I'd assume it's going to be Gakpo in the Firmino role but with more athleticism and less 'no look' showboating. Salah is still our most productive forward and has no real competition at RWF.

The LWF slot is really the one that's up for grabs. I suspect with a rest over the summer and a full preseason behind him it's going to be Diaz. He probably doesn't ever hit Mané numbers in terms of goals scored but he doesn't need to if we can add more goals from midfield which is an area we are way off the pace. Zero goals from Hendo, Fabinho Keita Milner and Thiago this year.

I think Curtis is our only midfielder to score a goal and hes only got 3, we are miles behind our rivals in goals from midfield. For comparison City had 23 goals from midfield, Arsenal 24, Newcastle 14 and Man Utd 13.

 

[peekay]

We have a bunch of players in attack capable of being good support casts but we need a lead singer or guitarist. We have spent a decent chunk of money on our attack relative to our budget and an ageing Salah remains our bands front man. Of the purchases, my hope is for Diaz to step up.

 

[Farkmaster]

I think it is an easier proposition to replace the goals of the old front three with goals from midfield, and across more forwards, than it is to hope for a front three that is anywhere near as lethal. I also think it should be horses for courses, both with selection and formation, and with fully using our 5 subs. The fact that gakpo can play in other positions helps immensely with this.

As far as one established three being as convincing... Not happening. Diaz doesn't have the goals or lethality of mane. Gakpo I think can absolutely do something like firmino, in a bit more buttoned up a style. Salah is declining. Nunez needs refinement and far more understanding of our play. We just aren't as good. We still offer so many headaches if we have a bit of technical ability in midfield though, and I think that's solvable.

 

[Hansern]

Good post and I agree that our attack isnt set up optimal yet. Not sure how we can improve it besides coaching and developing the players that are there. Its a bit unlikely that we’ll sign an attacker imho.

Easy to forget that Diaz was excellent at the start of the season prior to his injury. Thats the player we should remember. The one who played last night is out of form, short on fitness and rusty after a long injury. He’ll be excellent again next season.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

We should be OK... a better midfield will make our attack (and defense) stronger.

 

[Red Bird]

We should be OK... a better midfield will make our attack (and defense) stronger.

That’s been the story of our season although the way we defended that throw in

 

[StevieM]

With Gakpo we’ve sacrificed Bobby’s technical flair for more pace and physical presence - that’s not to say Gakpo isn’t technically good, he’s just doesn’t have as much flair as Bobby.

Nunez offers something more direct on the right and should we decide to play with an actual No. 9 then he can, in theory, offer something different through the centre.

The key for me however, is the midfield - and not the physical, powerful beasts that have French been mentioned.

We need midfielders who can press (you don’t need to be a physical man-mountain for that), but technically good and able to pick good passes that our fast, technically proficient and intelligent forwards can score from.

They also need to chip in with a few goals.

In this newish system we’re looking at midfielders who can operate out wide, create, retain possession, etc.

I’d say it make total sense why we’ve targeted the likes of Mount & Gravenberch.

Far to many loose final balls and reliance on the 2 FB’s to create absolutely everything.

No surprise Jones has started to look good. I’d say Elliot can develop his game to operate from the right and Carvalho could too from the left.

I like the idea of someone like Timber operating in a DM role in rotation with Fabs and the likes of Gravenberch, Jones, Mount, Mac Allister, Thuram or Elliot operating further forward.

We’re relying too much on our forwards to create and score everything when they’re up against very well drilled and organised defences.

I hate to say it - we need to be more like City - Haaland excepted, our forwards are as good if not better than theirs - as are our defenders - it always been the midfield we’ve failed on - we need our own De Bruyne, Bernardo Silva, Gundogan types that can create and score from midfield.

 

[keniget]

The one who played last night is out of form, short on fitness and rusty after a long injury. He’ll be excellent again next season.

The same was said about VVD. The thing that concerns me the most - and maybe I’m just looking for it, don’t know - is that he just isn’t beating players for pace enough.

As for the attack as the whole, been thinking along the the lines of the OP for months.

Teams used to be terrified of our attack, now they’re not and you can understand why.

Nunez is the biggest problem because we can’t afford a 60M Origi 2.0. We either need to cut our losses if we can or find a way to play with him, which doesn’t look like happening.

 

[Hansern]

Diaz is 26 though, and has more than enough pace to do it.

 

[StevieM]

The same was said about VVD. The thing that concerns me the most - and maybe I’m just looking for it, don’t know - is that he just isn’t beating players for pace enough.

As for the attack as the whole, been thinking along the the lines of the OP for months.

Teams used to be terrified of our attack, now they’re not and you can understand why.

Nunez is the biggest problem because we can’t afford a 60M Origi 2.0. We either need to cut our losses if we can or find a way to play with him, which doesn’t look like happening.

We can give Nunez another season, but he’d have to start showing something in pre-season and carry that form into the start of the season and show he deserves to be starting.

 

[StevieM]

My biggest worry about Diaz against Villa is that he was holding on to the ball too long and running down a lot of blind alleys - if he starts doing that he should rightfully spend some time on the bench.

I’m not too worried - he’s making his way back from a reasonably long injury lay off and he hasn’t played much with Gakpo, so I’d expect him to be a little rusty.

 

[Red Bird]

With Gakpo we’ve sacrificed Bobby’s technical flair for more pace and physical presence - that’s not to say Gakpo isn’t technically good, he’s just doesn’t have as much flair as Bobby.

Nunez offers something more direct on the right and should we decide to play with an actual No. 9 then he can, in theory, offer something different through the centre.

The key for me however, is the midfield - and not the physical, powerful beasts that have French been mentioned.

We need midfielders who can press (you don’t need to be a physical man-mountain for that), but technically good and able to pick good passes that our fast, technically proficient and intelligent forwards can score from.

They also need to chip in with a few goals.

In this newish system we’re looking at midfielders who can operate out wide, create, retain possession, etc.

I’d say it make total sense why we’ve targeted the likes of Mount & Gravenberch.

Far to many loose final balls and reliance on the 2 FB’s to create absolutely everything.

No surprise Jones has started to look good. I’d say Elliot can develop his game to operate from the right and Carvalho could too from the left.

I like the idea of someone like Timber operating in a DM role in rotation with Fabs and the likes of Gravenberch, Jones, Mount, Mac Allister, Thuram or Elliot operating further forward.

We’re relying too much on our forwards to create and score everything when they’re up against very well drilled and organised defences.

I hate to say it - we need to be more like City - Haaland excepted, our forwards are as good if not better than theirs - as are our defenders - it always been the midfield we’ve failed on - we need our own De Bruyne, Bernardo Silva, Gundogan types that can create and score from midfield.

That’s why we had gone and got Keita and Alcantara, wasn’t it? The tragedy was that they either failed to live up to expectations or couldn’t stay fit.

 

[StevieM]

That’s why we had gone and got Keita and Alcantara, wasn’t it? The tragedy was that they either failed to live up to expectations or couldn’t stay fit.

Yeah it was - the mistake was not in trying to do it, the mistake was not realising Kieta wasn’t up to it and cutting our losses sooner.

Thiago, I can accept that - there’s no doubt he had a positive impact on the squad and will have helped develop the kids.

There was no real upside to Keita.

 

[Tinto]

If Diaz can get back to last season’s form, there’s nothing to worry about there. He really looked like a worthy successor to Mane then. That’s how good he was.

Nunez can be handful for centre halves but it doesn’t look like Klopp has a plan for him currently. So the most question marks are about him,

Gakpo is all potential currently but at least Klopp has a plan for him.

Mane, Bobby and Mo often did it on their own but with ample support from Trent and Robbo and no support from midfield.

Klopp's next team can't be like that as I think opposition managers have worked it out to some degree. The midfield really need to contribute if we are to get our attack back to its best.

 

[Tinto]

I should have just said what Steve said!

 

[Tinto]

We have a bunch of players in attack capable of being good support casts but we need a lead singer or guitarist. We have spent a decent chunk of money on our attack relative to our budget and an ageing Salah remains our bands front man. Of the purchases, my hope is for Diaz to step up.

Diaz did step up last season. Can he step up again? That's the question.

 

[StevieM]

If Diaz can get back to last season’s form, there’s nothing to worry about there. He really looked like a worthy successor to Mane then. That’s how good he was.

Nunez can be handful for centre halves but it doesn’t look like Klopp has a plan for him currently. So the most question marks are about him,

Gakpo is all potential currently but at least Klopp has a plan for him.

Mane, Bobby and Mo often did it on their own but with ample support from Trent and Robbo and no support from midfield.

Klopp's next team can't be like that as I think opposition managers have worked it out to some degree. The midfield really need to contribute if we are to get our attack back to its best.

Honestly - this “Klopp doesn’t have a plan for Nunez” nonsense grinds my gears.

I suspect Klopps plan involved Nunez understanding the offside rule, not have the touch of an arthritic elephant from time to time and not absolutely ballsing up half the opportunities he gets.

This is on Nunez - he’s raw and he’s unpredictable - it’s on him to integrate - not Klopp to change everything just to suit him - he’s not that good.

 

[Donavan Ried]

Think the biggest problem with Gakpo,Nunez,& Diaz, is that they look to pass to Salah too much even when better options are on

 

[Tinto]

Honestly - this “Klopp doesn’t have a plan for Nunez” nonsense grinds my gears.

I suspect Klopps plan involved Nunez understanding the offside rule, not have the touch of an arthritic elephant from time to time and not absolutely ballsing up half the opportunities he gets.

This is on Nunez - he’s raw and he’s unpredictable - it’s on him to integrate - not Klopp to change everything just to suit him - he’s not that good.

I think Klopp did have a plan last summer. Nunez was to replace Mane whose starting position was in the middle by then. Also Mane didn't play like a false 9, dropping into midfield like Bobby did. I don't think it's outrageous to think that Nunez could replace Mane in that role. Looking back on it, the injury to Diaz put paid to that plan as we had nobody making chances from the left.

Gakpo's signing makes me think we are going back to building an attack with a false 9 and Nunez simply doesn't have the skillset for that. That's why I'm saying that Klopp doesn't seem to have a plan for Nunez now

 

[keniget]

Honestly - this “Klopp doesn’t have a plan for Nunez” nonsense grinds my gears.

I suspect Klopps plan involved Nunez understanding the offside rule, not have the touch of an arthritic elephant from time to time and not absolutely ballsing up half the opportunities he gets.

This is on Nunez - he’s raw and he’s unpredictable - it’s on him to integrate - not Klopp to change everything just to suit him - he’s not that good.

No, it’s on us for spunking all our cash on him.

 

[peekay]

I think Klopp did have a plan last summer. Nunez was to replace Mane whose starting position was in the middle by then. Also Mane didn't play like a false 9, dropping into midfield like Bobby did. I don't think it's outrageous to think that Nunez could replace Mane in that role. Looking back on it, the injury to Diaz put paid to that plan as we had nobody making chances from the left.

Gakpo's signing makes me think we are going back to building an attack with a false 9 and Nunez simply doesn't have the skillset for that. That's why I'm saying that Klopp doesn't seem to have a plan for Nunez now

I think both you and @StevieM are correct in the sense that Klopp set out this season with the aim of giving space for Nunez to be taking over the Mane position. At the beginning of the season, he received a lot of support from Klopp in the press conference and media. I remember several statements along the lines of the rest of the team not knowing Nunez's runs etc.

After Gakpo has settled, it seems that experiment has been abandoned a bit and we have somewhat reverted back to the tried and tested formula. I don't think Klopp is the type to abandon players but now it seems it is contingent on Nunez to show that he fits. Barring injuries, we are not going to be modifying the team to fit Nunez's strengths.

 

[peekay]

If Diaz can get back to last season’s form, there’s nothing to worry about there. He really looked like a worthy successor to Mane then. That’s how good he was.

Nunez can be handful for centre halves but it doesn’t look like Klopp has a plan for him currently. So the most question marks are about him,

Gakpo is all potential currently but at least Klopp has a plan for him.

Mane, Bobby and Mo often did it on their own but with ample support from Trent and Robbo and no support from midfield.

Klopp's next team can't be like that as I think opposition managers have worked it out to some degree. The midfield really need to contribute if we are to get our attack back to its best.

Diaz can grow to be a great player in his own right. He showed enough promise last season. But not sure if he can replace Mane's productivity offensively and defensively. There was a directness to Mane in attack and defense which made him so critical to the way we play.

 

[rubans]

I don’t see enough to be enough in Diaz’s play to be as potent as Mane. Mane was capable of hitting 20 goals and 10 assists ever season while Diaz being very talented holds on the ball too long.
If i had to sacrifice a striker to aid a squad build, it would be Diaz unfortunately.

 

[tomasjj]

Jota for me
very hot and cold, also injured often

 

[StevieM]

I think Klopp did have a plan last summer. Nunez was to replace Mane whose starting position was in the middle by then. Also Mane didn't play like a false 9, dropping into midfield like Bobby did. I don't think it's outrageous to think that Nunez could replace Mane in that role. Looking back on it, the injury to Diaz put paid to that plan as we had nobody making chances from the left.

Gakpo's signing makes me think we are going back to building an attack with a false 9 and Nunez simply doesn't have the skillset for that. That's why I'm saying that Klopp doesn't seem to have a plan for Nunez now

Yeah - that’s fair.

I think the initial plan was that Nunez would start from the bench and slowly integrate either through the centre or from the left with Diaz and Jota starting & Bobby slowly being phased out.

Jota’s injury made Nunez integration more urgent - but he quickly established himself as nowhere near ready.

I think Gakpo was effectively an admission that Nunez was nowhere near capable of leading our line and the plan shifted to utilising him on the left.

I think that worked better, but Jota & Diaz return increased competition for that slot, coinciding with another Nunez strain, with Gakpo establishing himself in the centre.

If we’re going to play with Nunez through the centre, it’s not as a false 9 - which means we have to have more creative midfielders and replace Salah on the left.

 

[Farkmaster]

I think gakpos signing had nothing to do with Nunez and everything to do with the fact that we had no one to play a false 9 with jota and firmino not playing consistently due to injury. Then, the mancs showed interest, and we figured we had him on the list and shouldn't wait.

Lastly, he was flexible and offered solutions to three problems. One of those problems is "our midfield is shit". I really hope that our strikers have less to do in that department. Until they do, even if they were as good as our former front three, they'll never hit those heights.

 

[Tinto]

Diaz can grow to be a great player in his own right. He showed enough promise last season. But not sure if he can replace Mane's productivity offensively and defensively. There was a directness to Mane in attack and defense which made him so critical to the way we play.

Diaz won't be the "killer" like Mane was but he has better technique and is a better passer than Mane.

Last season Diaz played so many passes across the box that really would have ended up as assists if we had a number 9, who was alive to them. Somebody like Nunez perhaps.