So a flat track bully is what you get for that fee?
Florian and the (Slot) Machine
- Thread starter MomoWASright
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Yet in three bit part games he’s already got a goal!
Nah there’s a player there for sure. My well documented concerns were around the risk of paying that much for a player very much unproven in this environment to which I was laughed at from all sides. So far my fears have been proven spot on and we are extremely fortunate the switch of style to accomodate him while he’s produced nothing hasn’t cost us points and games.
He should come good but plenty of good or even great players abroad couldn’t cut it here, nevermind at a club with the history, pressure and squad competition of Liverpool.
In the EFL against a Brentford side with only 3 recognisable names !
Typical Dreamy understatement 😛
In the summer I suggested that Wirtz would rotate with Gakpo on the left. Apparently a very controversial comment 😀
Not saying that we should give up on the Wirtz at AM, but considering Szobo's form, do you think we should move Wirtz to the left and drop Gakkers?
Not saying that we should give up on the Wirtz at AM, but considering Szobo's form, do you think we should move Wirtz to the left and drop Gakkers?
The one thing that no one could argue with is that he has a world class first touch.
That's about it so far.
If we can play football in a game for more than a little bit, it will help! Isak in front of him will also help. I'm not surprised its a bit of a headache accommodating him as that's what it looked like on paper. He will have to be very very good to justify his inclusion and be a net benefit. He might get there, he might not. I don't think there's much evidence to be confident either way, or reason to decide right now at his age and position.
Where is all this Szobo at LW coming from? That's a few times I've read it now. Ekitike and Isak both love the LW so there's your solution if Gakpo needs dropping for any reason.
EDIT. Oh I think you meant Wirtz - well he was put there when he came on as sub vs Everton wasn't he? Didn't exactly shine there, I'd much prefer he stays at #10 and integrates. It's not like he hasn't done anything - for an average player we'd be saying 7/10 - it's just he needs to deliver far more than an average player.
@Dreambeliever Your "well-documented concern" was that it's a risk to spend a shit ton of money on a young player to come play in a new system.
The only reason you got push back from it was that people were drunk on compilation videos and you were enjoying being contrary. It barely exceeds being completely self-evident. It's barely worth saying.
I'm also in the boring party-pooper camp at times, but you don't get to pat yourself on the back for it.
The only reason you got push back from it was that people were drunk on compilation videos and you were enjoying being contrary. It barely exceeds being completely self-evident. It's barely worth saying.
I'm also in the boring party-pooper camp at times, but you don't get to pat yourself on the back for it.
In his first 10 games? Trying to see where he was at the start as he was adjusting.
I think I just said the opposite? That he will excel against teams that leave space e.g. title challengers, than teams that park the bus.
Did you see the two stokes yesterday? They are meant to be our challengers.
I seem to remember the footballing world laughing at Rodrhi for the first few months of his career with the cheats... He looked far more lost than Flo does at the minute. And for all us old-timers, Peter Beardsley was quite shite for long periods of his first season with us.
He'll be fine. Might take a season to really, truly show what he's got, but it's coming. Where were KDB and Salah at 22?
He'll be fine. Might take a season to really, truly show what he's got, but it's coming. Where were KDB and Salah at 22?
I'm not sure KDB and Salah are useful examples. They came from the Belgian and Swiss leagues respectively as up and coming young players and their fees at the time reflected that.
Wirtz was a star player for a team that won the Bundesliga, played in the CL, played in a European final and along with one or two others is the big hope for a big national team in Germany (who admittedly seem a bit shit these days). His price tag reflects his status in the game. So does the hype and expectation.
Anyways, it's hard being an out an out #10. They're not very often accommodated. Even Zidane ended up on the left for Real Madrid.
As Fark said, he didn't naturally 'fit' on paper from day one (which was my concern as well), so it's not totally unexpected that there are teething problems. The hope at the time was that the hype was real and sheer talent and ability would overcome all obstacles. That hasn't happened yet but it's still the hope.
In fairness, it raises the existential question, is it not normal when a lad called pat, pats himself on the back?
Very fair point about the price, but I meant purely from a 'nobody thought that they'd become what they did back then perspective'...
I just think people are insane to pretend that 6 weeks into a new season in a new league is any kind of sample size to be predicting doom and gloom in his future.
Some players take to it straight away. Some take time to adapt. Some never adapt. Kerkez is still finding his feet. Different position, sure, but same league, same intensity. It's not linear.
I've seen some good signs from Wirtz, so am pretty confident he'll adapt and become a player for us. If not, sell him to Southampton for twice his value. Just like old times.
I've seen some good signs from Wirtz, so am pretty confident he'll adapt and become a player for us. If not, sell him to Southampton for twice his value. Just like old times.
And Wirtz will have the same chance Tuesday, but for now he’s had nearly three times as many minutes with nothing productive to show for it.
Your definition of productive is goals+assists which is fine for a striker (Mo. since he doesn't do anything else) but isn't accurate for a creative #10. As others have said if Mo. and others had had their shooting boots on he'd likely be at 3-4 assists and you can't put that on the creator.
Liverpool's supercharged plan to get £116m Wirtz firing
There are hundreds of voices we could use to offer a glowing reference for Florian Wirtz but a surprisingly enlightening one could be the rival manager plotting how to stop him this weekend.
There are hundreds of voices we could use to offer a glowing reference for Liverpool’s £116million man Florian Wirtz but a surprisingly enlightening one could be the rival manager plotting how to stop him this weekend.
‘He is an excellent player,' replied Everton boss David Moyes when asked about Wirtz on the eve of Saturday's Merseyside derby. 'He is a really good signing for Liverpool. He will go on to be an exceptional player in time. People will soon recognise that.
'He is a really, really talented footballer. I wish he was playing for me!’
Just about every football manager walking the planet wished the same, David. Readers may not have formed their opinion on Wirtz just yet but his name has been on the lips of industry experts for years. ‘Wirtz will be one of the best in the world,’ was the general gist of things.
European heavyweights Manchester City, Bayern Munich and Real Madrid tried but failed to sign him and his new boss Arne Slot has talked him up as a potential world-beater. Still only 22, Wirtz has got his big move to Liverpool and has moved on from being the future of German football to a worldwide name.
Here's the catch, though: since his move to Merseyside, Wirtz hasn't quite lived up to his exalted billing.
Search his name online and most results are negative. Fans of Liverpool’s domestic rivals and supporters of Bayern, whom he was heavily tipped to join but snubbed, are all hoping for a good old bit of schadenfreude.
Wirtz has learned quickly that at a club the size of Liverpool, your every move is micro-analysed. If he had a quiet game for Bayer Leverkusen, and there were very few of those to be fair, he could get away with it. A quiet game for Liverpool, though, and it sparks uproar.
He is not alone. Milos Kerkez, a £40m summer signing, was substituted on 38 minutes last weekend while walking a disciplinary tightrope – and he has had some stick since. Newcastle fans, likewise, found joy in the fact Alexander Isak sent a few shots narrowly wide on his debut for the Reds against Atletico Madrid in midweek.
Considering Liverpool have won five from five, those inside the building may laugh off any suggestions their signings have not settled yet, and ask any detractors to reserve their judgments for later in the season.
It is fair, though, to say we have not seen the best of Wirtz. This time last year, he had four goals and one assist for Leverkusen. In total he got to 31 goal involvements, having notched 38 the year before as his club won the Bundesliga and German Cup, unbeaten in domestic football. This year, he has zero goals and zero assists.
Sources put that down to fitness and the length of time it takes for new signings to adjust to the intensity of the Premier League. His former Leverkusen colleague, Jeremie Frimpong, has struggled with muscle injuries since making the same journey to Liverpool.
You don't have to look far for other examples of Bundesliga stars taking time to accumulate - Timo Werner, Kai Havertz and Jadon Sancho are just some of the stars who haven't replicated their exploits in Germany on these shores, and closer to home Ryan Gravenberch took a year to get his feet under the table before blossoming into one of the best midfielders in the Premier League.
Liverpool’s fitness gurus have been putting Wirtz through his paces to bulk him up, so he is ready for the rough-and-tumble of English football after going through tough gym sessions that often involve giant medicine balls.
Slot was asked about this on Friday and said: ‘No, no, we do nothing differently with Wirtz than the others. But what is different for him is that he went to a new club where we probably do things a lot different on and off the pitch. So he needs to adapt.
‘Hugo (Ekitike, another big-money arrival from the Bundesliga) and Flo are used to playing three games a week – he needs to adapt because every single game is tough.
‘He gets better and better every single game. He always wants to have the ball, even if he has a few moments where we feel like he could do better. He just always wants to keep the ball, always keeps on trying. And he gets better and better, fitter and fitter.
‘That's maybe the thing that matters most, because we don't have to teach him how to play football. He just has to adapt to the intensity levels of the Premier League.’
A month before Wirtz signed for Liverpool, when it had become clear that he had chosen England over staying in Germany, Daily Mail Sport went out to Munich to talk to experts who had followed his journey and he was described to us as a ‘complete footballer’.
It is understood Virgil van Dijk spoke to Wirtz on the phone before his transfer but he did not need much persuading – Wirtz, plus his parents Hanz and Karin and his nine siblings, decided Liverpool was the place for him.
Manchester City had been firmly on the table at one point but he is said to have had reservations about how long Pep Guardiola would be at the club, while Bayern boss Vincent Kompany was rejected, politely, because Wirtz wanted to test himself in England.
Wirtz has acknowledged the difference in intensity of the Premier League already but, against Atletico Madrid on Wednesday, he had his best game in a Liverpool shirt.
He was getting on the ball more and doing what he does best: driving at opponents and exploiting gaps.
‘He can control the game and the rhythm,’ Maximilian Koch, chief reporter for the Abendzeitung newspaper in Germany, tells us.
‘He reminds me of Andres Iniesta and Kevin De Bruyne, a very intelligent and creative player. He can also score and assist.’
Another German expert, Heiko Niedderer, who has worked at BILD for 20 years, adds: ‘He’s one of the best offensive players we have had. We have the two of them, Musiala and Wirtz.
'They are both pretty special but Wirtz is even more complete now. He can do everything.’
Wirtz is not said to be fazed by his big price tag, which is a base fee of £100m that will reach £116m only if Liverpool dominate both at home and in Europe for the entirety of his six-year contract.
In fact, it is used as a bit of a banter point inside the training ground. There are jokes about how, if he was signed now, £75m signing Van Dijk would have cost more than Wirtz and Isak due to inflation in the transfer market.
Aside from the on-pitch work, Wirtz has been described as a quiet, down-to-earth chap, purely focused on football.
Part of his reasoning for coming to England was that he thought it would make him a better player, something he ran by national team boss Julian Nagelsmann.
His parents, who are his agents, help him stay grounded. Once when away on national team duty as a flourishing teenager, they paid for a teacher to attend the camp so he did not fall behind with his studies for the German equivalent of A-Levels.
Everyone you speak to believes Wirtz will soon set the Premier League alight, despite a perceived slow start, perhaps beginning with this weekend’s Merseyside derby.
We started on a quote from rival boss Moyes, so here is another glowing reference from Slot to finish: ‘To say that he's an artist doesn't do him justice. He is an artist, but he can be mean as well.
‘Otherwise, you can’t reach the levels he has reached. He works incredibly hard to get better and better and better. He's not going to hide.’
We're top scorers in the league, and he's created maybe two clear cut chances, his xG and xA are way off what we need. There's definitely signs there, and hopefully it turns into more over time, and we're fortunate the team in general is getting results, but if you're happy with what's he's done so far, your standards aren't high enough.
Is that how you interpreted my post?
No, just a general statement.
Ah then yes I agree. I just meant that for a #10 goals and assists can't be the only barometer.
Not the only one, but it's a pretty important one. If he ended the season with zero goals and assists, it's be a disaster of a signing.
Goes without saying. However if you have a 10 who doesn't contribute much but scores a few goals more than someone who runs the attack and press and is often involved in the build-up but scores less, then I'd happily forgive him scoring less for his overall contribution.
I think it's an important distinction between a striker and a #10.
I do agree that goals and assists (I prefer chances created) are important, but as Froggy says it's not everything for certain positions and player roles.
Iniesta, one of the best of his generation, had 57 goals in close to 700 games for Barcelona. It feels low for a world-class attacking talent, but he did so much more than that for the great Barca team.
Not giving Wirtz excuses, he can do much better with his general play, he ain't no Iniesta yet, but just saying. If he starts showing his talent consistently and helps us dominate and win matches, I really wouldn't be all that concerned if he ended up with a low g/a by the end of this season.
Iniesta, one of the best of his generation, had 57 goals in close to 700 games for Barcelona. It feels low for a world-class attacking talent, but he did so much more than that for the great Barca team.
Not giving Wirtz excuses, he can do much better with his general play, he ain't no Iniesta yet, but just saying. If he starts showing his talent consistently and helps us dominate and win matches, I really wouldn't be all that concerned if he ended up with a low g/a by the end of this season.
